This was an incredible, hour long interview with Jonah of Gratitude. It took awhile to type up, but it was well worth it, and it is well worth your time to read it as Jonah has some incredible thoughts on music and life in general. This is quite an educational interview.

SL: Introduce yourself.

JM: My name is Jonah, and I sing.

SL: What does having the tour sponsored by Alternative Press and Vans mean?

JM: Umm...not much. You know, I have no idea. I think Alternative Press is a cool magazine that has been covering music for a long time, so I'm happy to have them helping. Its just that I'm not sure what they do either (laughs). Its just a tour. They got Straylight and other bands and said "lets go." We don't get money for it. Its not-I'm sure someone-something happens, but I'm always down with being associated with organizations that aren't, say beer.

SL: Vans sells shoes and everything. Thats always a good thing to be associated with.

JM: Thats actually pushing it for me a little bit. Its cool, but AP is a music magazine, so that makes a lot of sense to me. Vans is a little bit-eh, but not enough to make me not associate myself with it.

RF: When I think of Vans, I automatically think of music anyway because of the Warped Tour.

JM: Thats interesting. Thats good branding by Vans then, but Vans has been around a long time. As global as they are now, they started out being about music and skating. I wish that there was more partnering of music with directly progressive organizations. I'm talking with people in Boston who do No Sweat Apparal, and they make clothes (T shirts and jeans) that aren't made in sweatshops. And they make amazing Converse copies (takes them out of a compartment) that aren't made in sweatshops.

SL: You should also check out Moo Shoes.

JM: Oh, I love Moo Shoes. Whenever I go to New York, I buy from Moo Shoes all the time. I think alternative organizations should always get together, whether it be music or whatever. I think in that way, there can be really cool partnerships. This, I guess, is in the middle. Its not strictly cool, but I'm not losing any sleep over it either. Its alright.

SL: Is it tough, in your opinion, for your fans to see you as a person as well as a musician and entertainer?

JM: Yeah, thats really hard. Actually, speaking of all this stuff, I'll tlak about a lot of things because I'm a person that likes to talk about a lot of social issues. "What do you think about this? Here's what I think." That, to me, is what democracy is. Then, even more, if we print up T shirts for tour and choose to use a company that doesn't use sweatshops, we'll make a much bigger difference, and also, the kids who buy the shirts will go "Oh, cool, a non sweatshop T shirt." So that gets passed on. I love those things about it, but, I think that this funny thing happens if I talk about-say-non sweatshop. Sadly, the vast majority of clothes we wear were made in sweatshops, and uts really hard to do anything about that unless you want to wear a loin cloth and live in the fucking jungle.

SL: I kind of want to do that now.

JM: Right, you see? I want to talk about it to be aware of it, and I want to do everything I can to do it, and I want everyone to learn as much as they can about it, but, people who are scared and insecure that they're not doing all they can, will often attack someone else who is speaking up about it. They'll go, "Dude, you said this, but now you're wearing Levi's."

RF: Especially, since because you're in a band, you're in the public eye as well.

JM: Exactly, so its easier ti deflect from our own insecurities and attack someone else. So that can happen, especially with me because I do talk about so many issues. But, like a lot of people, I'm a mess. I might say one thing one day and then change my mind the next day, or I might say something, but someone could see me doing something thats inconsistent to what I said. Maybe it is, but I'm not out here to be perfect, I'm out here to raise awareness. I'm out here to talk to people about whats important to me and I want them to talk about whats important to them. For me, I'm involved with PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals). I'm not even a strict vegetarian. Its not even the point for me-I think, here's an organization thats talking to people about what they eat. I think thats important.

RF: Do they know that you're not a strict vegetarian?

JM: Yeah, and they were totally cool about it. They did the interview with me and I talked about how, for me, its not about 100% this or 100% that, because that just ends up in fighting. Who's more this or who's more that; its kind of like religion. It gets the same with any lifestyle if you take it to extremes, and I'm just not interested in that. A perfect example is one time when I was sick and I wanted to eat some chicken soup-I'm Jewish, I like chicken soup. Some people said, "Dude, you like chicken soup but you're with PETA," and I'm like "So." To me, there's no conflict there, but I think maybe its their fear of not living up to their own ideals. They're really psyched to attack anyone who is not living up to whatever ideal it is. So, it is confusing, yes. But, you know what, I'll take it. Its not about being a musican for me; thats what it is to be a citizen in this society. If you have ideals and you're living in our world, you're gonna not live up to all of them.

SL: And you're gonna get trashed by people for whatever you do.

JM: Yeah, thats true, too, and you can try and kind of cut corners and not say anything and not step out of line, but I think you end up with a very boring culture. Lets talk about it or argue about it if you think I'm doing something thats not right, let me know, but you don't have to be a dick about it.

SL: Why do you think most musical trends fade away?

JM: Well, there's big sort of deep things involving forces we don't understand and moods of society. In any form of art, architecture, style of clothing; who knows why these things shift and change, but I think they sometimes change quickly because of the short attention span thing. I think that advertisers try to keep you moving on to the next thing so they can sell you the next big thing after you just bought all the last big thing. Where artists step into that in someways, I think if you have people that choose to copy the superficial aspects of something thats popular-like Led Zeppelin-by the time it got to Whitesnake, you lost everything that was cool about Led Zeppelin, but you still had the dude singing high and the guy playing a double neck guitar, but it wasn't anything like it. The Clash or Green Day-by the time you get to bands that might sound like them or look like them, they're nothing like them, even if they are. You could put the records on and say that it sort of sounds the same, but its not. What I'm getting at is that if you have people and artists that do things like that, you can very quickly burn out on a style. If every band out there were doing their own thing and the weird little way that music comes out to themselves and not worrying about what other people are wearing or singing, you might not notice styles changing drastically because you'd have more of a broad continuam the whole way through. There wouldn't be these little scenes that would shift every six months. It might just be a bunch of bands making music and a bunch of people that like music watching them, and you wouldn't be thinking so much about the style changing. So, I think the perception of styles changing can be because a lot of bands are interested in copying what a lot of other bands are doing at the time.

RF: One thing that I was also wondering about was certain trends that become hated once they die away. New Kids on the Block or the Backstreet Boys, and you're starting to see it now with the current emo trend. I can see that, in a few years, people are just gonna hate it and be embarrassed that they once liked that.

JM: Yeah, I think thats always gonna be around if audiences and artists are into the quick fix: the easily recognizable style. Whether its the artist trying to make music that sounds as much as something else as possible, or the listener saying "I like that and I want things to sound and look like that." You're just gonna constantly have this overkill and this shifting and this sort of extreme thing. For me, I've always just tried to think about all the musicans I've loved, whether its Zeppelin or The Clash or U2 or Miles Davis or Sinead O'Conner or The Pretenders or Radiohead or Pearl Jam or Bjork or any number of artists-Public Enemy-that sound, in some ways completely different, but to me in my heart, they're all artists that are really trying to do something unique. So I try to take that as inspiration, and for that reason, I've never sold a bazillion records in any band I've done. Gratitude is a band where we all love music; its nothing more complicated than that. We're not interested in dressing a certain way or extolling a certain set of values, except to be true to yourself, whether your friends think its cool or not. And that I think you'll always be proud of. We all look back at our high school haircuts.

SL: I'm still in high school, so I don't have anything to look back on.

JM: There you go. You're doing alright then. You don't look embarrassing at all (damn straight!). Most people don't do so well in high school. I think if people stay focused on what feels okay to them instead of what their friends think. I think thats a good start at getting away from trends and getting away from that sort of idol worship and then idol hatred thing that happens. But, you know what I found too: bands that fall into those categories; if they're good enough, they'll transcend it. Maybe you'll go through a period of "I don't like that anymore; thats not cool." If a record is good enough, it will last. i think thats why Pearl Jam is still valid. I think if you keep doing what is close to your heart-these things come and go, so, as an artist, I try not to worry about this stuff. I don't like being labeled or catergorized, and I don't think Gratitude needs to be catergorized as a band, but its okay. If someone thinks we're a certain thing or wants us to be a certain thing, thats fine. Its our job as artists to be true to ourselves.

SL: Did you go to college, and if so, where?

JM: Yes, I went to Pitzer College, which is a tiny liberal arts school in Southern California. It was about a 750 person school, so it was very very tiny, and I loved it.

SL: I was wondering because you sound like a very educated person.

JM: Well, thank you. I don't know how scholarly I am, but I love words and being able to communicate directly. I love knowing why I think what I think and I love questioning myself and questioning other people, so thanks.

SL: Say something about your new album and how its been perceived so far.

JM: I'm really proud of the new record. I really feel that it, speaking of trends and all, doesn't necessarily fit into any trends. We're all really proud of-it just feels like music to us. Thats exciting-to make rock and roll, but its just rock and roll. Its not anything that complex, but it feels right to us.

SL: Its just something that feels natural and makes you happy-

JM: Yeah, yeah, and I don't think it sounds like anything else, and thats really cool. I'm proud of that. How its been perceived: gosh, I don't know. I think, maybe because the market I come from, lately, I've really not been interested with being associated with emo. When we were in the same sentences as Fugazi and Shudder to Think and Jawbox and Quicksand, thats cool. And even though the music I was making at the time didn't exactly sound like those bands, I felt a kinship with them. I don't think we're doing that right now, whatever it is. Any time anybody wants to put it too easily into a category, I start to feel skittish. I think that people come to expect things out of it. We call our music "Bobcore." Its sort of a joke that we invented, but its just music thats not about any particular trend. Its jut music: "Bobcore."

SL: Name one piece of advice that you would give to a band about to sign their first record contract.

JM: I would say, in most cases, especially with smaller labels, keep your master recordings; meaning keeps the rights to sell them and make them yourselves if you leave the label. I would say to any band just starting out, which I do often, think about how much you need to live: what your rent is, if you live at home, what your food costs. Everyone in the band, add it up and put it on a piece of paper: what you need to survive every month. Then, figure out, whether it be by CD sales or shows or whatever, add up how much the gas costs and this and this and this, and figure out what you need to do to make that money that you need to survive playing music. This is gonna take a long time. If at the end of this process, you're just bored, then don't be in a band, because if you get through that and you're excited about it, that is the dedication that you need to really really get through this. Its one thing, what we just did playing, thats awesome; thats so fun, but you have to stay sharp, because if you don't stay sharp and you don't know what you want and you don't understand where the money comes from, you will get ripped off. And you will find yourself bored and sad and asking yourself why you did this. I went into music the whole time knowing that it wasn't much different from starting a convenience store on the corner. Its just a little business, but you don't have to be stupid. The more you know about all the little crap involved in it, the more passionate you can be about it and the more you can go, "This is my life." Its like being in a relationship and it being all sex and ice cream. You're gonna get bored with each other, you're gonna get bored with yourself. You have to decide if you end up living with each other, which is a huge decision; there's all this stuff to decide, and if you don't factor that in at the beginning of the relationship, then you're gonna end up disappointed and angry and sad, or you're gonna grow together. Its exactly the same thing with your friends, your business, your band. Its all the same. My advice is, in all the little stuff, thats where all the emotion is; thats where all the heart is. All the romantic stuff is awesome and everything, but the boring stuff is where the real intimacy is. Thats what I think.

SL: Do you think foreign born citizens should be allowed to run for President?

JM: Not if they're Arnold Schwarzenegger. The whole reason that is an issue right now is because the whole Republican party would love him to be their next candidate.

SL: And California would probably want him too because they voted him in.

JM: He got in-there's a lot of shady stuff about that. His whole campaign was funded by really questionable people. If you look at the numbers, picking a politician is just like being in a band. If you just rely on their ads, do you think you're gonna get the truth.

JM: (somehow the topic moved to Bush's political campain) The Bush team is one of the scariest administrations thats ever been, but, as far as a business thing, my God are they they good at manipulating the media. You can ask yourself, "What are they doing here and what can I do to defend it?" I would love a President that could remind us that we're much more alike than we are different. But I think Schwarzenegger, as scary as he is in some ways, he'd be a lot better than Bush, sadly enough. How do I want The Terminator to be President more than ours. But, he's actually not all that conservative, which is interesting. Socially, he's pretty liberal, and because he's been portrayed as this shoot him up action hero, he's perceived as tough. I hope he's not President. I hope we find a President that can speak-I don't think this administration is speaking for the majority of our country, and thats what Democracy is about. I think Democracy, in that way, has been a little bit lost right now, and thats sad for me. I think this administration is speaking to a very vocal minority in this country, and thats cool, but its not really what I think this country is about.

RF: So, would it matter to you if the person was born in, say Mexico?

JM: No, to really answer your question, no. Maybe they could do better, actually. If someone is an immigrant, they could have a much better perspective on what they think is beautiful about America. Sometimes, when you're born into something, say if you're born into a rich family, you totally take for granted all the priveledges you have. If you've experienced life, lets say, under a dictator, you might be on fire to spread Democracy in a way that maybe someone who was raised in it might not even grasp.

JM: (This brings about a long discussion about Bush's policies and how they are named in such a way that it sounds like a great thing, when, in reality, its not). This goes back to emo, or grunge. Before long, and a) why people hate it, and b) why its not around for very long is because you've got a band that isn't what they're calling themselves. Thats not what they are at all, but they look like it, they sound like it. In reality, the latest emo band was probably a metal band five years ago. They cut their hair and they got some glasses, and its all about-its really cool that we keep going back to the same themes-its all about perception and letting go of what your superficial immediate perception is and going "Why am I having this opinion right now? Whats going on with me? Am I scared? Am I being manipulated by the images that are being given to me?" I think that level of thinking would be really helpful right now. As much as I'll bash Bush, its not about that; its about our culture as a whole right now. People are so stuck in their little camps of "You're wrong," "No, you're wrong," "You're ignorant," and I think this is a scary time. Its a good time to remember how lucky we are.

RF: Do you think we're fighting a Holy War right now?

JM: I've read a lot of articles suggesting that and I think its an interesting argument. There's more of a born-again evangelical Christians right now in our government than I think there ever has been. No, I think we're fighting a money war. I actually-I almost wish that it were for something more important. Its a really good question because-no, its money. I really believe if you follow the money. A lot of people say that its an oil war. Most people will say that its a conspiracy theory and they wouldn't do all this for oil. I remember during the first Gulf War, I was talking to my uncle who knows a lot about global economics, and I was being a little war protester person and I was saying that this war was about oil. He said, "yeah, you're right, it is, and if we don't fight for it, the whole world goes into a depression." Someone just said it. Though I didn't agree with him, the way he saw it was that if we didn't keep the balance of power by oil control, then you better protect those interests or we're gonna be in a lot of trouble. He was talking about it then, and I could ask if we could try this, or couldn't we try this, or can we use alternative energy sources, or why do we have to do this; did we have to go to war for this? But, we were talking about the real thing. Right now---do you know what its not about? Its not about Democracy. Its not about freedom. Its not about Iraqis having freedom at all.

SL: And its not really a war on terror either.

JM: No, thats made it worse. Its made the American sentiment worse. No one can argue it. I guess if you were pro war, you could say: "See, here's the proof. We need to fight for our country." To me, there's always been extreme factions in different countries that have hated America, but there's always been a middle class thats in the middle. They don't like the fact that we have an army base there, but they don't want to bomb us. What we're doing by wrecking countries and inserting governments is a lot of those in the middle, potentially supportive people that would be a part of the Democracy, they're getting more and more disenfranchised because we're not doing what we said we were going to do. And, all of a sudden, the preacher on the corner doesn't sound as nuts. Thats whats scary to me: there are extremes that you could go to in this war, and one of those is a Holy thing. If you're a Christian, and you believe that the Bible is prophecy, its all about the Middle East. Everything thats happening right now, whether its in Isreal or Iraq, its exactly the place in the world that people are talking about when they talk about what goes down during the end of days. So, if you want to take that angle, its pretty easy to buy into. I think its much more immediate. I think its much more "here's a bunch of people who made all their money off of oil, and if they keep doing it, they and their kids for 20 generations will be set for life.

RF: They're set anyway.

JM: But you know, greed. When people say that it couldn't just be about greed; to me, its like, well what started every other war in history? If you look back in history, it really hasn't truly been about spiritual belief. Usually, its been about a king wanting to get richer and using religion to motivate the undereducated, scared citizens that these other people are infidels or the devil. But, really, he just wants the golden eggs. Its kind of the same old story. When people think of it as some wacky idea, it doesn't seem all that wacky at all to me. It seems like its been going on forever.

SL: Name one album, besides your own, that you feel all kids should have in their collection.

JM: Physical Graffiti, by Led Zeppelin. I'm not sure that there's one ultimate album. I could give you one from every genre. Physical Graffiti would be my rock one. My pop one would be Sign of the Times by Prince. My jazz one would be Kind of Blue or Bitches Brew by Miles Davis. Ambient, you could go get something by Brian Eno. To me, there's just different innovators in every form of music. Hip hop-go get Public Enemy It Takes a Nation of Millions, go get that one. I'll stick with Physical Graffiti.

SL: Final comments.

JM: This interview was a really good example of how, whether you're talking about love or politics or religion or music, you're kind of always talking about the same stuff. You're really talking about how you're gonna be in the world. I think this is a good example because all of the questions kind of fold into each other and they never ended up where they started, but the next question was kind of about that too. I think thats an important thing to remember too.

RF: Its weird, I've never realized that until this interview.

JM: One thing that I think is good about this is, that I realize things talking that I would never realize in my head. Its really weird, and I don't know why that is, but I'll find myself saying stuff and thinking "I've never thought about that before." All this talking and stff-in some ways-there's a lot of times when I won't have the answers, but I'll have a song. Its like, "this is what I'm talking about." It might not make sense to anyone else, but it makes sense to me. Thanks, you guys.

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