‘Our Flag Means Death’ Made Taika Waititi Care About Acting Again [Interview]

When Taika Waititi began working with David Jenkins on the HBO Max series “Our Flag Means Death,” he knew he’d eventually want to play one of the main characters. Hopeful that Waititi would eventually be down for it, Jenkins wrote the show’s version of the legendary pirate Blackbeard with the Oscar-winner in mind. With Blackbeard at the center of an unexpected romance with the “Gentleman Pirate,” Stede Bonnet (Rhys Darby), the role turned out to be arguably the best acting performance of Waititi’s career. Moreover, the fact that Waititi wasn’t writing or directing the series (outside of the pilot which doesn’t include Blackbeard) meant he had to take the acting, well, more seriously.

LISTEN: David Jenkins talks “Our Flag Means Death” [Podcast]

“I really just loved the idea of doing something that was just where I could just go and act and not have to worry about anything else. Because I always put the acting in my stuff, which you’ll be able to see when you watch any of my work, I put it right down last on the list of importance,” Waititi admits. “And I’ve spent all of these years writing these scripts and writing this dialogue, and then I’ll learn it on the day. And then I’ll be super disappointed in myself because I don’t know the lines that I wrote. And then, the writer part of me is pissed off with me. And then the director part of me is pissed off with the other two versions of me because they were wasting the day, you learn the lines in front of everyone. And so, just take a role and go, ‘Well, here’s some decisions and all I have to do is focus on this part of it. It desensitized me and my apathy towards acting because I’d gone off acting for a few years. I was like, ‘It’s kind of bullshit. I was like, ‘You just f**king remember words and say them.’ But then I was like, ‘Oh, no. That’s right. If you really want to, you can actually go deeper into it, and you can actually think a bit more and actually do some research. And not research as into the real character, but research into yourself and how you might approach the role.'”

It’s really no surprise that Waititi had put his acting chops on the back burner. He’s worked almost non-stop. Even during the height of the pandemic. He’s an executive producer and co-creator of “Reservation Dogs,” which just won a Peabody Award, he co-wrote and directed “Thor: Love and Thunder,” which comes out next month, had an on-screen role in “Free Guy,” voiced a character in “Lightyear,” wrote, directed and produced “Next Goal Wins” (which appears to be his next film to finish) and is still an executive producer on the Emmy-nominated “What We Do In The Shadows.” He’s so busy it begs the question, “How does he do it?”

“Honestly, I don’t know. I have no idea,” Waititi admits. “I think it’s just making a list of what I have to get through each day and making sure I don’t forget anything, and just giving a little bit of time to each thing. And understanding, ‘Oh, you know what? This one’s going to need two weeks of solid work and everything else has to go away.’ And then just doing that. And then coming back to the other children and going, ‘O.K., I’m sorry I left you for two weeks. Now I’m back.’ And then I’ll go and nurture them. And it’s really just like a bunch of little plants that I’ve just got to make sure each of them gets the right attention. And then one of them will grow up and be a fully grown thing, and then I can go, ‘O.K. Out you go into the world.’ That’s ‘Thor.’ He’s gone. Relief. I don’t have to work on that anymore. And then you just move on. And then you free up more space. And then eventually you feel like, ‘Oh, I’ve only got three or four projects on. I could probably take on another four.’ So then you go make a huge mistake and say yes to four more projects like a f**king moron, and then you go and then start all over again.”

Waititi pauses and adds, “I’ve learned my lesson. I’m not doing it anymore. I’m done with saying yes to too many things.”

Over the course of our conversation, Waititi and Jenkins explain how the real-life story of Stede is almost a perfect three-act structure, how they approach the issue of “tone” (or if you need to), and tease a tiny bit of the recently greenlit second season.

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The Playlist: Congratulations on your Peabody win this morning.

Taika Waititi: Oh, yeah. I completely forgot about that. I heard about it the other day and they were like, “You’ve got to shut up about it.” And I was like, “O.K., well, I’ll forget in about two hours anyway.” And was reminded again today. So “Reservation Dogs.” We’ve got a Peabody.

The Playlist: That’s an amazing show as well. So happy it exists in the world. David, I’ve read that you came upon this idea for this show literally from a Wikipedia entry. What made you take the time to develop it?

David Jenkins: Well, a lot of times you look at historical things and you’re like, “Ah, that’d be cool. That should be a thing.” And then you read it and you’re like, “Oh, this is all messed up and it’s going to take so long to fix.” Stede’s story falls into act breaks almost. It never happens that way. You’re like, “I’m going to bend it this way, and then I’ll invent all this stuff,” which we did anyway. But it had a natural thing of a really good starting point. He has a mid-life crisis and leaves his family, and then a really good thing where he meets Blackbeard. So all of those things were lovely. And then there’s more stuff that I don’t know that we’re going to do, where he and Blackbeard start to fight each other and he hunts him, and they never see each other again, and then they both die hung. So, we’ll see about that.

The Playlist: Taika, how did this even come your way? Did someone put you and David together? Or did he reach out to you?

Taika Waititi: We’ve got the same manager. You do the math.

The Playlist: Oh, there you go.

Taika Waititi: I mean, we do. But I met David just over the phone, just to have a chat about the idea. And David told me about the guy and I was like, it feels too good to be real. And it was one of those stories where you’re like, as David was saying, it’s just all there for you. And so, I was instantly into it. I can’t say that I’ve ever really wanted anything to do with pirates. I’ve always wanted to do something that was a period thing, but I was never like, “Oh, I love pirates.” And there’s a lot of that content after the films and everything. You don’t have to go far to find something to do with pirates in it. But this felt very different because it was a love story. Really, it’s a love story between two men who happen to be on boats.

The Playlist: And I believe you talked about “Master And Commander: The Far Side of the World?”

Taika Waititi: That’s not at all to do with pirates, but I do love the film. I do love watching the escape of going on the high seas with Russell Crowe around Cape Horn on a massive boat and chasing the French warship. So that escape is my love. It’s more like when you say to someone pirates…you know what you think of.

David Jenkins: In that first call, we talked more about “Master And Commander” and “24 Hour Party People” than actual pirate things.

Taika Waititi: That’s right. Yeah. Because there was that original thought, about “24-hour Party People.” [Steve] Coogan keeps talking to the camera. He breaks the fourth wall and stuff. And there was, just for a minute there, that was one of the things we were like, “Oh, yeah, because you’d said a workplace, ‘The Office’ feeling thing.” And then as we were just thinking about what could this be? Does it feel like it’s a mockumentary? There’s a camera crew within the crew? But in the end that didn’t make sense, and I think it would’ve pulled you out too much. And also I was already sick of vampire mockumentaries, so I didn’t want to do another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFE8ASwxmpA

The Playlist: When you guys were breaking down the show was it always going to end as it did in the season finale? Was there always going to be this cliffhanger, they’ve broken up, and Blackbeard is quite upset, but there’s hope for them to get back together?

David Jenkins: From very early on it was going to be that Stede goes back home, and if Stede goes back home something’s gone horribly wrong between him and Blackbeard. And there’s a really nice symmetry to Stede becoming a real boy in the first episode and a pirate, and then having to undo becoming a real boy and trying to get back … Like George Castanza-ing himself back into his life with his wife and pretend that he didn’t f**k everything up. So if you do that, you by definition have to split them up. And yeah, that was from very early on. That was the way it was going to end. It also gives Mary more to do, as opposed to being somebody who’s just jilted. She gets her day in court and that felt important to me, so you don’t just burn her off in one episode.

The Playlist: Should we expect Mary to come back in a season two?

David Jenkins: I think they resolved a lot. I don’t know that I want to reopen it.

Taika Waititi: I don’t know. Probably won’t.

The Playlist: One of the great things about the show is its tone. It’s quite funny, drop-dead funny at times. And then also you have these tender moments that are unexpected. Did you guys talk about how to work that into the series? Were you concerned at all about keeping the tone consistent throughout?

Taika Waititi: I don’t think I was ever concerned. I think we always knew it was going to be funny. It’s more committing to the moments that require a little bit more of a delicate touch between characters, and not just blowing over it and going like, “Well, they’re being romantic but let’s just do what all comedians do and ridicule it and ridicule emotion.” [Instead,] committing to it and going, “What if we do this as a drama now?” And I think what’s successful about the show is it switches in between. Someone was describing the last episode, where we drop a piano on someone, it’s like a cartoon. And then there are other versions earlier on where it’s a full Sundance drama between two men who’ve just come back from the war and are just desperate to kiss. And then it swings in the other direction to just a workplace comedy, with just boring conversations about winding rope and stuff, or making a flag. So it just goes everywhere. But tonally, there is a consistency in that. I think really that’s the boat, but also those main characters who have very real contemporary problems.

David Jenkins: Yeah. I like comedy alongside actual emotion. And then, a lot of times in comedies when there’s an emotion, something lands emotionally they’ll diffuse it immediately with a joke. And I don’t like to do that. I like to let it land and sit there like you would in just a proper story. To me, I get confused when you start talking about comedy versus drama. It’s all the same story. It’s just that when you’re bored you can switch to a different flavor when you’re doing a comedy like “Looney Tunes” and dropping a piano. And then one to nine is like Merchant and Ivory or something. It’s like a “Masterpiece Theater” [production].

Taika Waititi: That’s exactly what it is. That’s the reference. It’s exactly that. It’s like, “Remains of the Day.” Is that the one with Hopkins and Emma Thompson?

David Jenkins: Yes.

The Playlist: While you were working with the writer’s room and you guys were fleshing out the series, was there one challenge that was really omnipresent? Was it bringing Blackbeard and Stede together? Was it any of the other characters’ storylines?

David Jenkins: I think giving everybody their day, their moment because it’s an ensemble thing. So, that’s always the big challenge of it. And then, I think building a relationship that unfolds between two characters in a satisfying way, pacing it in a way that feels like, “Oh, O.K. This is building to something. This is good.” Doing slow-burn romance, everything gets magnified. Every gesture gets magnified. The consequence of him tucking something into his pocket and saying that he wears fine things well. That’s such a simple gesture, but in the world of these two men talking to each other, it’s huge. So it’s finding those little moments that really land as well. That was, I think, the big project of the first season.

Taika Waititi: It’s hard with a lot of interesting characters where at any point you’d be happy just to follow them for an entire episode. And you’ve got so many of them and that’s another part of the balancing act, isn’t it?

David Jenkins: Yeah.

The Playlist: I believe, for most of the boat scenes you’re using the rear projection technology? Am I right? Or is that incorrect?

David Jenkins: A lot of them. Yeah.

The Playlist: Could you have made the show without that? Would it have been too expensive to have to go out and shoot on the sea?

Taika Waititi: We could never have gone out.

David Jenkins: No.

Taika Waititi: I don’t know if anyone could ever really do that again unless it was a Tom Cruise movie, because you’ve got hardly any hours on the water to actually shoot. The boat’s turning around all the time in the wind, and you’ve got to keep the sun in the same place for continuity. I mean, it’s just nightmare after nightmare to try and shoot like that.

David Jenkins: I mean, that’s what’s amazing about “Master And Commander” is he actually did it. Makes you think that you can do it and you can’t do it.

Taika Waititi: No, you can’t do that. You can’t do what Peter Weir did.

David Jenkins: He’s Peter Weir. And you’re making a TV show. Just know your limits. Know your limits.

Taika Waititi: Yeah. Go into a box and put some TVs around your boat and put some motion on it, and just go with what you’ve got. And it looks good.

David Jenkins: Get a giant “Mandalorian” screen and then you can do it.

The Playlist: Taika, I also wanted to know, at what point did you realize you were going to be starring in this series and not just producing it?

Taika Waititi: I think about six, or eight weeks before? 10 weeks?

David Jenkins: Yeah, that sounds right.

Taika Waititi: I mean, I always wanted to do something in it. I mean, I’ll put myself in anything, especially if I have some say in it. And so, I was like, “I’ll find something in there.” We were talking about Blackbeard, that he was starting to take shape to be a little bit like me, and I really just loved the idea of doing something that was just where I could just go and act and not have to worry about anything else. Because I always put the acting in my stuff, which you’ll be able to see when you watch any of my work, I put it right down last on the list of importance. And I’ve spent all of these years writing these scripts and writing this dialogue, and then I’ll learn it on the day. And then I’ll be super disappointed in myself because I don’t know the lines that I wrote. And then, the writer part of me is pissed off with me. And then the director part of me is pissed off with the other two versions of me because they were wasting the day, you learn the lines in front of everyone. And so, just take a role and go, “Well, here’s some decisions and all I have to do is focus on this part of it. It desensitized me and my apathy towards acting because I’d gone off acting for a few years. I was like, “It’s kind of bullshit.” I was like, “You just f**king remember words and say them.” But then I was like, “Oh, no. That’s right. If you really want to, you can actually go deeper into it, and you can actually think a bit more and actually do some research. And not research as into the real character, but research into yourself and how you might approach the role.”

David Jenkins: I wrote it for Taika from jump just because it’s funny to have Blackbeard, which you expect really aggro guy, and then to have Taika’s mellow vibe come out of him is really good. And then it worked out. I’m amazed that you actually did it, but yeah, it worked out.

Taika Waititi: Well, I don’t know if anyone was just doing a trick, but it worked. And that’s basically just with me. If you say, it looks like we’re going to have to go with someone else, I’ll just make it work.

David Jenkins: There was a moment where it was like…

Taika Waititi: Hang on a minute. Instantly, you saw that, about half a day later I was like, “I think I made the dates work.”

David Jenkins: It was, what do you think about “X” actor?

Taika Waititi: Totally. And I was like, “Hang on!”

The Playlist: I do feel like this is one of your best performances because in one episode you’re playing Blackbeard beyond crushed, and then I think he’s one of the most fearful characters you’ve ever played. It’s not comedic. You really do think he’s gone to this dark side or whatever you want to call it. Was that fun for you to play?

Taika Waititi: It’s definitely fun for me to play. But also, I guess as well, that’s part of the acting. Well, there is that stuff in all of us, and if you’re not careful you’re going to go, “O.K. This is really starting to trigger things. There’s stuff I don’t even want to think about ever again after years ago.” And then you start thinking, “Oh my gosh. Oh, this is not actually acting.” You’re like, “Oh, you’ve got to watch out for this.” It’s sorcery, acting.

David Jenkins: Your body doesn’t know it’s not real.

Taika Waititi: That’s right. When someone says cut, I understand now when people are like…I don’t think method is the thing of let me actually live like a person in the 1700s. It’s actually when you start believing it and you don’t hear the word cut. That’s the extreme of method acting, I think. You just get lost in it.

The Playlist: We’ll have to keep you away from toes in the second season.

Taika Waititi: It’s very easy to make someone scary if you just get them to cut off a toe.

The Playlist: Obviously, you guys make the show in a bubble last summer. And it comes out and it’s very unconventional for what a lot of shows are on television these days. How are you taking the love for it? There is a passionate fan base for it.

Taika Waititi: I only pay attention to the fan art. It’s my new obsession. I hate social media now. The only joy I get from social media is looking at all this beautiful fantasy fan art that comes about Stede and Edward.

David Jenkins: To read about some people’s analysis of it is amazing because it gets obsessive where you’re like, “This is going to get weird. Oh no.” But then, their obsession with this show, it can go wrong at any minute and that’s fine. But up until now, the amount of focus they give everything where you came up…You do a production meeting and you’re exhausted and you’re f**ked up and tired and you’re like, “Yeah, that’ll be blue.” And we’ll paint it blue. And then months later they pick up, oh, that thing was blue in that scene, that choice was amazing. And you make a million of those decisions. And to have them pay attention and pick it apart in such a lovely way gives every department it’s due, and every person who worked on the thing it’s due, and every idea that you came up with on a random Tuesday is celebrated. It’s amazing when that happens. I don’t think it happens very often.

The Playlist: I don’t think it does. Taika, I wanted to ask you. You are insanely busy. You have so many shows and films on your slate. Legitimate question, how do you do it? How do you balance all these projects in your life?

Taika Waititi: Honestly, I don’t know. I have no idea. I think it’s just making a list of what I have to get through each day and making sure I don’t forget anything, and just giving a little bit of time to each thing. And understanding, “Oh, you know what? This one’s going to need two weeks of solid work and everything else has to go away.” And then just doing that. And then coming back to the other children and going, “O.K., I’m sorry I left you for two weeks. Now I’m back.” And then I’ll go and nurture them. And it’s really just like a bunch of little plants that I’ve just got to make sure each of them gets the right attention. And then one of them will grow up and be a fully grown thing, and then I can go, “O.K. Out you go into the world.” That’s ‘Thor.’ He’s gone. Relief. I don’t have to work on that anymore. And then you just move on. And then you free up more space. And then eventually you feel like, “Oh, I’ve only got three or four projects on. I could probably take on another four.” So then you go make a huge mistake and say yes to four more projects like a f**king moron, and then you go and then start all over again. I’ve learned my lesson. I’m not doing it anymore. I’m done with saying yes to too many things.

David Jenkins: It worked for Bob Fosse.

Taika Waititi: That’s true.

David Jenkins: I think he made it work. I don’t know. I didn’t see the end of the movie.

The Playlist: Well, he died a tragic early death.

Taika Waititi: Wasn’t he also on speed and coke for the majority of that time?

The Playlist: He didn’t live to his eighties or anything [Note: He lived to just 60].

David Jenkins: Spoiler.

The Playlist: Spoiler. Sorry! But I guess my last question for you guys is that, do you guys know when you’re shooting season two? Is it happening?

Taika Waititi: It is happening.

David Jenkins: The fall?

Taika Waititi: Location-wise, where we’re trying to shoot it, is in the glorious kingdom of New Zealand.

The Playlist: Oh, so you’re moving. You shot the first season in LA, right?

David Jenkins: Yeah.

The Playlist: So what makes you want to shoot the next one in New Zealand?

Taika Waititi: Well, the state of California hates pirates.

The Playlist: Ah, those tax incentives don’t always come back around, do they?

David Jenkins: California ain’t cheap.

The Playlist: Nope. Not cheap.

Taika Waititi: No. Yeah. I mean, selfishly it’s pretty good for me because I get to be near my children.

The Playlist: It’s good for you.

Taika Waititi: If I’m happy, this shit is going to be awesome.

“Our Flag Means Death” is available on HBO Max