You likely are unaware of their names, but Randy Barbato and Fenton Bailey have produced and/or directed some of the most influential pieces of filmed content over the past thirty years. Through their production company, World of Wonder, they have won five Emmy Awards for “RuPaul’s Drag Race,” a global phenomenon that has spawned seven international spin-offs, including a BAFTA-nominated entry for the BBC. And they have produced a slew of other reality programs, including the “Million Dollar Listing” franchise for Bravo. But they are also members of the Academy’s Documentary branch, and for good reason(s). One of which has been brought to the spotlight with Searchlight Pictures’ “The Eyes of Tammy Faye,” which has earned producer and star Jessica Chastain her first individual SAG Award win and her second Best Actress Oscar nomination.
Barbato and Bailey directed and produced the original “Tammy Faye” documentary, which the film was based on. After debuting at the 2000 Sundance Film Festival, “The Eyes of Tammy Faye” earned numerous honors, but more importantly, brought much-needed humanity to Tammy Faye Messmer (formerly Bakker), an evangelical figure that had been mischaracterized in the public eye by her husband’s scandals. Still, it wasn’t until 2011 that anyone approached the duo about adapting the doc into a live-action feature film. That person just happened to be Chastain, who, after watching the documentary one night in a hotel room, was enraptured by Tammy Faye’s story.
“What was so persuasive and remarkable about Jessica is she just got Tammy Faye,” Bailey says of their initial meeting. “I wouldn’t necessarily look at Jessica and think, ‘Oh, that’s Tammy Faye,’ but she was so articulate and passionate about it. There was no question that when she came along, we were like, ‘Oh, yes, girl.’ People make jokes about the makeup. And she didn’t use makeup to disguise who she was. She made use of makeup to reveal who she was. And [Jessica] just got Tammy Faye.”
Over the course of our conversation, Barbato and Bailey discuss the adaptation, their WoW Docs division, how the golden age of documentaries doesn’t apply to everyone, the eight category Oscar telecast controversy, and, oh, whether those elimination rules have run their course after “Drag Race vs. the World” (hint: they haven’t).
____
The Playlist: Before we discuss “The Eyes of Tammy Faye,” I have to ask, how do you guys do it? Your company has so many things going on. I know of other companies that have people in your positions, and they do much less, and they seem overwhelmed; how do you pull it off?
Randy Barbato: It is a legitimate question. And it’s mainly because there are so many amazing people who we work with at World of Wonder, where we’re different than a lot of production companies. I mean, we’re fiercely independent. We’re not owned by any other entity. And a lot of people who work at World of Wonder have worked here for a really long time. One of our previous assistants is the showrunner on “Drag Race.” I mean, people grow up at World of Wonder. And so, we are surrounded by people who’ve been here for a long time and people who are much smarter than we are. Well, Fenton might not agree.
Fenton Bailey: I agree with Randy. Everything Randy says, I agree with.
The Playlist: Let’s talk about “Eyes of Tammy Faye“ because I spoke to Jessica a couple of months ago, and she’s told many of us how she watched your doc in her hotel room one night and was compelled to try and make it into a live-action feature. First of all, I’m curious what your reaction was when she reached out? And secondly, had any entities approached you before her?
Fenton Bailey: No, people hadn’t approached this before, and I think it was perhaps because in spite of our belief in Tammy Faye, I still think that maybe society at large still considered her something of a joke and didn’t really get the truth about Tammy Faye. And that was what was so persuasive and remarkable about Jessica is she just got Tammy Faye. I wouldn’t necessarily look at Jessica and think, “Oh, that’s Tammy Faye,” but she was so articulate and passionate about it. There was no question that when she came along, we were like, “Oh, yes, girl.” People make jokes about the makeup. And she didn’t use makeup to disguise who she was. She made use of makeup to reveal who she was. And [Jessica] just got Tammy Faye. There was a first part to the question.
Gregory Ellwood: The first part was, what was your reaction when she reached out?
Randy Barbato: Well, it was Jessica Chastain, so we’re like, “We’ll take this meeting.” And we’ve told her this. Initially, we were like, it wasn’t who we ever imagined, A, being interested in the story, and B, playing Tammy Faye. But when we sat down and met with her, it just was so clear. Her understanding, her passion for it. Getting to know Jessica, it just completely made sense. Like all Hollywood stories, it took about eight or nine years for it to happen from the time we met. But her commitment was unwavering. During that whole time, she would every now and then, reach out. We would send her more links and video footage. And so, we had the faith that she was going to get it made, but it did take a few minutes.
Fenton Bailey: Randy was on his way for the birth of his twins when we met Jessica. And they were born literally two days later. So, when the movie came out, the twins had turned eight. Right?
Randy Barbato: They’re eight now. So yeah.
Fenton Bailey: So it took eight years.
The Playlist: Since you knew Tammy so well, was there anything, in particular, you were hoping would be in the film?
Fenton Bailey: Well, I think Jessica really nailed it in the sense that two things, in particular, stand out. One is the opening scene of the movie, where it’s from the documentary, where Tammy is getting her photograph taken by Greg Gorman. And the makeup assistant is like, “Oh, well, we’ll just take off the makeup and start afresh.” And Tammy’s like, “Well, you can try, but this is all tattooed on.” And I thought that was a great way to start the movie. And then the other thing was, of course, the interview with Steve Pieters that she did, which was such a radical thing for her to have done in Christian media at that time, but also, even in secular media. I mean, this was … Was it ’85? It was a month after, or the same month, or the month after Rock Hudson had died. I think Reagan had only just mentioned AIDS for the first time ever. She really was on the front line. And obviously, it scandalized the Christian community. Not that it should. Because as she says, “How sad it is that we, as Christians, are afraid to put our arm around someone and tell them that we love them.” I mean, the idea that would outrage Christians is like, well, what? What? But it sort of makes sense when you look at what has happened with the evangelical community and how they voted Trump in and stood behind this kind of thrice-married adulterer person accused of assault. You see that she was an outlier in a community that was headed in a very different direction. And we see that now, all too clearly.
Randy Barbato: I mean, that’s a big part of the whole story of Tammy Faye. People’s dislike of televangelism. And obviously, there was a financial scandal. All of that sort of overshadowed the real story, which was that Tammy Faye and their brand of Christianity was a threat. It was a threat to the corrupt Christianity that has had this grip on American politics. And so, it’s the packaging. It’s the makeup and stuff that prevents people from understanding what’s really there. And that’s too bad. And can I just add one other thing when you said, were there things that we liked or were hoping that would be in the film? For me, Jessica just embodied Tammy, and it was all the little things, the way she opened her cans of Diet Coke. It was chilling to watch this performance, having spent the amount of time we’ve spent with Tammy and connected with her so closely. When Fenton and I saw the first cut that we saw, we were … I mean, we saw over a weekend. And it every night, we kept texting each other. Like oh my God, “I’m just so freaked out.” It really was just the entirety of the performance for me.
Fenton Bailey: Yeah. I suppose there was an apprehension that they would just go option “The Eyes of Tammy Faye” and just make a totally different film. And I felt she stayed really true to the core message of the documentary and the core message, most importantly, of who Tammy was and what she stood for.
The Playlist: Obviously, Tammy died far too soon, but what do you think her reaction would be that someone playing her was nominated for an Oscar? How do you think she would’ve processed that?
Randy Barbato: I think it would be unbelievable to her because I think she became so accustomed [to] all the incoming criticism that she received, especially during the last few chapters of her life [but it hurt her]. I just don’t think she would ever believe it could happen. That someone could portray her and be nominated for an Oscar. Now, also, I find it unbelievable, not because the performance is Oscar-worthy, but we know that often the nominations go to the character people believe should win an Oscar. Now, “Lucille Ball should win an Oscar because Lucy is a Hollywood icon.” Tammy Faye is not a Hollywood icon. She’s a gay icon. You know? And so, it’s great that she’s nominated. It’d be greater if she won, but I think, you know the way Hollywood works.
The Playlist: Well, the good news is it’s a wide-open race, so she’s got an excellent chance. And it would be amazing if it happened. On another topic, in prepping for awards season I watched the documentary you produced, “Wojnarowicz,” which was critically acclaimed and nominated for the top IDA Award. It was an utterly fantastic doc. I don’t know if you rebranded, but I noticed you have begun to push WOW Docs to the forefront as part of your company. What are your long term goals with that division in terms of the sort of films you want to produce? And are you trying to do more than perhaps you’ve been able to do in the past?
Fenton Bailey: Yes. [Laughs.]
Randy Barbato: I mean, I think the intent of WOW Docs is to produce more feature docs, is to continue to work with more talented directors that we’ve [met]. Chris McKim directed the Wojnarowicz film. He’s someone we’ve worked with for many years. It’s not the first doc he’s directed for us. “Explant,” which is a doc that is about breast implant illness, that Michelle Visage is an executive producer of, was directed by Jeremy Simmons, another director who we’ve worked with for many years. So partially, it’s about trying to create opportunities for talented directors and for stories about individuals that we’re not going to necessarily be able to sell anywhere.
Fenton Bailey: It’s funny actually, because Eyes of Tammy Faye, we couldn’t find any money to make that film. We did a little presale to Cinemax, and we got a little money from Channel 4 UK, but it didn’t pay to make it. So we always found that the stories we want to tell are just hard to finance. I know it’s a golden age for documentaries and it’s great more documentaries are being made than ever before. Sometimes though the lens of, or the filter of what people consider a documentary worth funding, sometimes that filter is a little narrow and only certain stories are considered worthy. But we’ve always believed in finding a way to tell those stories ourselves. Because if we didn’t do that, we wouldn’t get to tell them. And that was as true with “The Eyes of Tammy Faye “as it was with “101 Rent Boys,” as it is with “Wojnarowicz,” as it is with “Explant.” So it sort of made sense to create a label of Wow Docs because there’s a story out there for everything pretty much.
Randy Barbato: And also, so many of the stories of individuals were attracted to, from Tammy Faye, to Wojnarowicz, to Drag Queens, to Club Kids, so many people sort of perceive that, those stories or those individuals as marginal. We perceive them as part of our tribe. And we think our tribe is a lot bigger than people always tell us. We think everyone is sort of queer, whether you’re actually queer or not. Everyone’s an outsider. So we think that the audience for these stories is much bigger than people are always trying to convince us. And like Fenton said – and it’s great – even though it’s the golden age of documentaries, trust the only documentaries that all these streamers want to make are what they think are blockbuster docs. You know?
Fenton Bailey: I don’t completely understand it. I think the true crime lens is a really weird thing. On the one hand, you can have the goriest stories. And on the other hand, one’s involving sexual assault or rape, it’s just hard to figure out what the algorithm is about.It’s just this bizarre thing that certain stories don’t deserve to be told. It makes no sense, but-
The Playlist: It is the golden age of documentaries, but only for a certain subset of documentaries.
Fenton Bailey: Yes, exactly.
The Playlist: That’s great for those filmmakers making them, but I know too many great filmmakers who are having problems getting things made.
Fenton Bailey: Absolutely. That is so true. It isn’t in this great age of documentary that there are suddenly a lot more documentary directors. No, it’s actually in this great age of documentary [where] a handful of directors are just insanely busy, which is great for them. But it’s unfortunate for all the people who are still shut out or feel excluded.
The Playlist: Well, I don’t want to keep you guys much longer, but I have two quick questions for you is, one, as members of the Academy…
Fenton Bailey: Oh, don’t get me started.
The Playlist: Oh, I wasn’t going to ask about the situation with the eight categories. It is ridiculous. I had a much more fun question, although if you want to talk about that, that’s great.
Fenton Bailey: It’s interesting. No one is being denied an Oscar. All we’re talking about is that those eight categories aren’t going to be on TV. So the most important thing about winning an Oscar is getting it on TV, which I find interesting because so many people in the film community are always negative about TV and reality TV as an inferior medium. Why are we even having this conversation? Which is not a question you asked. And Randy’s probably going to say, you shouldn’t have said any of that.
Randy Barbato: No, I love it. Are you kidding? If they want more people to watch the Oscars, they should get us to produce them. The stage would be filled with drag queens. It would be a show that everyone would watch. We’ve been waiting for the call.
The Playlist: And actually, that sort of ties into my question is, having looked over the members invited over the past few years, and especially in the acting branch, there have been some that have made me think, “O.K., wouldn’t have expected that person to get in, but bless.” So, in that context, why isn’t your longtime collaborator, RuPaul Charles, with his numerous film credits, a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences? I’m confused.
Fenton Bailey: Right!
Randy Barbato: I don’t get it either. I don’t know. Yeah. Don’t get me started, please.
The Playlist: O.K. I do have one last sort of fun question for you is, as a fan of “Drag Race UK vs The World” and having seen what has now happened over the past few weeks…
Randy Barbato: Oh, no. Trying to hide.*
*Barbato begins to hide off the zoom screen
The Playlist:… and I say this with genuine curiosity. For an installment like “UK vs the World” where the queens are traveling from all over the globe is it possible that maybe the “All-Star” rules don’t work for this franchise? Is it maybe unfair? It’s great television, but I’m just asking.
Randy Barbato: It’s not even that. Well, first of all, Pangina is a star. Does it really matter who wins? I mean-
Fenton Bailey: This is an interesting point actually because I think you can link the Oscars and “Drag Race vs The World.” The problem all prizes are, even the Nobel peace prize, it’s like, is it ever fair? Is life fair? That is the question. Is life fair?
Randy Barbato: And it’s always subjective. I suggest you go to the Vegas show, “RuPaul’s Drag Race Live” at the Flamingo. The closing number is a song called “Losing is the New Winning,” which I’m sure you’re familiar with or maybe not. Losing is the new winning. But it is. I mean, are you kidding? Like online, it’s like get rid of the lipstick.
The Playlist: Well, I will say it has made for great television. I will say justice for Jimbo. But thank you for your time And seriously, thanks for all your work in the world of docs. Clearly, “Wojnarowicz” would never have come to the screen in any way, unless you guys were behind it. And I know that people will catch up with it years from now. It’s such a great tool to learn about him as an artist.
Fenton Bailey: Thank you for saying that because I think the documentaries get made for the long tale, for the long-term audience. It’s like, here’s a story of an artist who lived. And when his life changed with that death sentence of AIDS, he just so clearly spoke out in ways that are still relevant to us today. Especially here we are in another post-pandemic. I think it’s for the long term. It’s not for the short-term crisis of what have you. That’s not what’s important. And I think it’s all for the long term really.
Randy Barbato: And maybe 20 years from now, the male version of Jessica Chastain will call us up and ask about doing the scripted version of the Wojnarowicz film.
“The Eyes of Tammy Faye” is now available on HBO Max and Hulu. The original “The Eyes of Tammy Faye” documentary and “Drag Race: UK Vs. The World” are available on WOW Presents Plus. “Wojnarowicz” is available for digital download.
