To say that Stephen McFreely and Chris Markus have had a very good run is a bit of an understatement. The screenwriting partners established themselves as the go-to writers for Marvel Studios after the box office and critical success of “Captain America: Winter Soldier.” This lead to four years working on both “Avengers: Infinity War” and “Avengers: Endgame.” The latter earned a staggering $2.797 million across the globe. “Infinity War” earned $2 billion. It’s hard to imagine any studio not being interested in their next pitch. Yet, somehow, the awards season respect isn’t there.
READ MORE: David Gordon Green to direct Cambridge Analytica from “Avengers: Endgame” writers
While “Avengers: Endgame” earned a strong 78 from critics on Metacritic you have barely heard the duo’s names in any conversations in the Adapted Screenplay category. Perhaps many consider the franchise too popcorn and not “serious” enough (unlike, say, “Black Panther”), but from a writing perspective, the plot mechanics Freely and Markus pulled off with so many individual characters are worthy of, at a minimum, genuine respect. The pair participated in a press day Disney arranged this week to remind the media of their “Endgame” awards contenders overall and discussed everything from exploring the five-year jump, the response to “Love you 3,000” and more.
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The Playlist: O.K., be honest. What is like to get up every morning knowing that you wrote the highest grossing movie of all time worldwide?
Stephen McFeely: My 10-month-old doesn’t know it, so nothing really needs to change. She’s so ungrateful.
Chris Markus: I am borne aloft by a group of fans. I pick ten every morning and they carry me to my bath. [Laughs.] No, it’s a nice little glow that you can think about every now and then when you’re washing the dishes, but it’s fantastic that so many people wanted to see what we worked on for so long.
The Playlist: Well, we’re here to talk about “Endgame,” but it’s almost impossible to consider your work without putting “Infinity War” into the same context. Compared to a normal screenwriting process, and I don’t even know if there is a normal screenwriting process in the Hollywood studio system anymore, but compared to that, can you talk about what the major differences were outside of the time frame?
Chris Markus: Oh, well, Marvel tends to keep the writer around. So, Chris and I got the “Captain America: The First Avenger” job back in the day, in late 2008, and we pretty much been working steadily ever since. In that case, we moved to London for four or five months. In this case, we moved to Atlanta for a year and a half. We started this process sometime in 2015 and outlined both movies over the course of the last four months of 2015 and then wrote the first drafts in the first five months of 2016. And then we just rewrote both movies basically in Atlanta, starting in the middle of 2016 and then throughout shooting in 2017, and then either back to Atlanta in 2018 in order to do another six weeks of re-shoots. So, it’s been our lives really since we got the job, which was, I think, the day we started shooting on “Civil War” we were also in Atlanta. So, it’s been about a four year journey from, say, agreeing to the gig, to watching it come out.
The Playlist: During those four years, other films in the Marvel universe that had to be tied into this one came out and you saw reactions to characters and events that maybe Kevin Feige and the whole team weren’t necessarily sure would play out. Were there moments that integrally changed because of the reaction to the other films?
Chris Markus: No. I mean, one, because just on a scheduling basis, it’s too late to turn the boat around by that point. By the time “Black Panther” came out we were done shooting basically both of them so you can’t calibrate based on that. But also, we had conceived of this as an epic tale that was pretty well in stone. So we weren’t going to alter anything based on reactions.
Stephen McFeely: Even if we wanted to.
Chris Markus: Reactions certainly enhanced things. In “Infinity War” we had them go to Wakanda in the middle of the movie, because it made sense for the plot. It allowed us to bring Panther into the story. But when we wrote that, we had no idea how the world at-large was going to feel about Panther and about Wakanda, because “Black Panther,” I think, had maybe been written, but certainly not filmed and certainly not released. And we did a test screening after it came out, and just when he says, “I know a place.” And you see some trees, people cheered where as a month before, they would not have cheered. They would have gone, “Oh, that’s interesting, Wakanda.” So, it all builds on itself.
Stephen McFeely: That kind of synergy you’re talking about is in the beginning process, where maybe we’ve read the “Black Panther” scriptor the “Thor: Ragnarok” script, but we don’t know whether Tessa Thompson, how much she’d be embraced, or how much Shuri is embraced. I remember talking to Nate Moore and saying, “Listen, we’re thinking of going to Wakanda.” And he goes, “Well, I’d use Shuri, because she’s awesome.” But we hadn’t seen any footage yet, you know?
Chris Markus: Yeah, we’ve seen a still photo of the actor.
Stephen McFeely: That’s right. So it’s a lot of faith, actually, that [the rest of] Marvel is going to come up with something that’s going to be helpful to you and you just have to believe that the world will like it. But you’re right, we’re nervous on opening weekend.
The Playlist: Who came up with the idea of taking the five year jump in “Endgame”?
Stephen McFeely: Oh, God, I don’t know. I mean, I think the reason we did it was so that we could push the characters along, particularly the ones that we were going to say goodbye to. Remember, the first movie is basically a Thanos movie. The second movie was supposed to be an Avengers movie, specifically the six original Avengers, because we were going to say goodbye to most of them. So, by coming up with a plot, killing your bad guy, destroying the stones, sealing this outcome in amber and then jumping five years, it meant that you had expectation that they were going to be changed or you were eager to see where they were after five years of the biggest loss anyone’s ever had, so that’s the intent of all that. Five years isn’t just random, it’s sort of, “What can we do on a character level and not have to recast our actors?”
The Playlist: Taking that into context, were there scenes that you had envisioned in the first few drafts that you were fighting to keep in the movie over all these years? I can’t suggest ones, but were there any that were really important to you that no matter what you wanted to try to keep in the movie?
Chris Markus: That did in fact make it to the final cut or didn’t?
The Playlist: That did make it, yeah.
Stephen McFeely: Well, we put on the board early that Tony was going to snap his fingers, the power would be too much for him, but he would save the universe. That’s on a 3 x 5 card from October of 2015 and right next to it is “Steve and Peggy get their dance.” So from the very beginning, those were flags we put in the ground and we drove towards. It wasn’t a matter of fighting for them. Everyone went, “Yep, we’re doing that.”
The Playlist: Were there any scenes that made the film that you guys then in that context, I guess, were just really happy that they still made the cut? I don’t know how long the original cut of the movie was…
Stephen McFeely: The first one that was discussable was probably 3:15 or something. It was going to be a long movie. We always knew it.
Chris Markus: I mean, frankly, it’s hard to think of cutting anything at the moment, so it’s hard to see what would have gone, but there’s things I’m glad are in the movie. Certainly, you could tell the Steve Rogers story on a plot level starting with him just walking into the room and saying “Hi” to Natasha when she’s crying and not have the support group scene. That [support] scene tells me so much about the world and about his state of mind that I could see a more ruthless cut done just for time if your studio was demanding a two hour cut or a two and a half hour cut, where certain things that don’t necessarily mean plot, get cut. And I’m so glad that was never the directive.
The Playlist: And I’m curious, obviously the one line that everyone fixates with the movie is, “I love you 3,000.” Did you realize it would mean so much to the fans watching the movie, or just audiences in general?
Stephen McFeely: No, we knew it was cute. It’s a Robert[Downey, Jr.] line. The original scene was, Morgan Stark saying, or they say to each other, “I love you tons.” And the callback is, “I love you tons.” And so, he says it, “I love you tons.” And [instead] he goes, “I love 3,000.” Which is a thing that Robert’s kids either say to him, or have said to him in the past in real life. And so, he whispered to the actress, “Say, ‘I love you 3,000.” And as we were testing it, audiences went, “Oh, how adorable.” And so, we made sure that he brought it back at the very end in his own eulogy.
Chris Markus: It’s a great example of how you can plan these things to a surgical level, and we do, but then there are still happy accidents, because these movies are made by humans, and there are human actors who are full of good ideas, but are so bonded to the characters at this point that they have a section of their brain that thinks like them.
The Playlist: Having had to shoot years out where there elements you worried about? For example, overweight Thor. That could have easily backfired. Were there risks that you were a little worried about at all?
Stephen McFeely: You named one of them. On a logistic level, if you want to think about that, that’s one of the few bits of Endgame that we shot early while we were doing “Infinity War.” In general, we shot “Infinity War” and then shot “Endgame.” But that scene, because we were shooting in Scotland when we were doing a train station scene for the first movie we shot all of heavy “Lebowski Thor” at Asgard with Renee Russo and all that in April of 2017, so two years before it came out we committed to that. And the whole time we were thinking, “Well, this better [work]. We better not want to change this, because this is what we’re doing.” And obviously, it’s a manifestation of that character’s grief and his loss. It’s how do we know what this guy’s gone through? It seemed very natural and [Chris] Hemsworth was eager to play against type, so he was all for it. The other one, of course, is saying goodbye to the first female Avenger of the Marvel universe. And so, end of act two is Natasha dying and we certainly thought long and hard about that, but it was the best thing for her arc in our opinion.
The Playlist: Were you guys surprised, especially in this age, where it seems like nothing can be kept a secret, how much so much of it was? Now, granted, expensive NDAs are discouraging for many people to break embargos but you are testing these movies, and you’re in Atlanta for years on end…were you surprised how little of the things you guys were doing sort of even made it into the discourse at all?
Chris Markus: I was surprised, and I was really pleased, because it wasn’t just Marvel security, tight as it is, but it was also … there was a collective desire to really experience this movie as it was meant to be experienced when it came out, and that when people did try to leak stuff, particularly the online community said, “Hey, don’t do that. Stop it.”
Stephen McFeely: That’s right.
Chris Markus: “We’re kicking you off the site.” Because when there’s something that doesn’t mean that much to you, you can engage in a one-upmanship about, “Oh, I saw what color the robot is going to be this time.” But when there’s something that really means something emotionally to people and has been building for this many movies, they really didn’t want it spoiled. And so, I think the fans were as big a part as anything of keeping a lid on it, which was great.
The Playlist: I wanted to just go back for a second, talking about that five year break. I’ve seen the first six episodes of “Watchmen” which deals with a world where something dramatic has happened in the past and the consequences of that. How that even can change a society in many ways. And in “Endgame” you have half the world disappearing and you could probably do a whole movie just about how the world reacted to the population disappearing. As writers, was it frustrating to not have the ability to show more, and is it something that you would want to return to? Do you feel like there’s an opportunity there, narratively, for some character in some way?
Stephen McFeely: The sad Disney Plus series, something like that? [Laughs.]
The Playlist: Exactly
Stephen McFeely: Clearly, you could do it, right? But what we were trying to do in that movie is say goodbye to the original six Avengers. [So much so] that we wanted all of that kind of stuff to be through their eyes. So, go back to “Endgame.” There are very few normals or civilians, in that movie. Everyone in the movie is a famous movie star. The only scene that you get basically is the support group scene. Everyone else? There’s just no chance to explore what the cop and the grocer and the teacher think about [beyond that scene]. What was the point of the movie? And the point of the movie was exploring our heroes and their loss and their redemption. So I get your point, but it certainly didn’t have room for it. I mean, how long would that movie be, you know?
The Playlist: Sure, perhaps I’m just throwing it out there hoping it will smark some sort of nini-series. [Laughs.] I’ve got two last questions for you. First, on a personal level, having gone through this four year process what do you think you’ve learned as screenwriters for yourself? How do you think you’re a better screenwriter than you were four years ago?
Chris Markus: Well, I am still further convinced that you almost don’t know what you’re doing till the third draft. No matter how much you outline and how clearly you see the characters, there is something that is happening subconsciously somehow that is coalescing within the material that you only see after a certain amount of time. It’s an annoying lesson to learn, because it means you can’t really do anything with that. You just have to wait and keep working on it. But that there are things happening beneath the surface that mean something.
Stephen McFeely: I guess I knew it would be the biggest puzzle that we ever did. It’s a big Jenga puzzle, this thing. So I guess I’m a little better puzzle player. But Chris is right, there’s not a real substitute for just grinding and getting to the second draft as quickly as you can, because the first draft is just the raw clay that you need to actually mold the real movie.
The Playlist: And then lastly, you guys have spent literally half a decade making these two blockbusters back-to-back. What are you doing next and does it involve a small little $2 million indie just for kicks?
Chris Markus: Sure. I want to tell stories, and I want to tell stories primarily about people, be they alien people, or the people down the street. We have a couple of true stories under our belts from the days before Marvel and we’ve written another one. And it’s been nice to get back to that area of things and to play in that box. We’ve written a movie about the Cambridge Analytica scandal that was revealed last year and that’s casting up now.
Stephen McFeely: We started a studio with the Russo Brothers, so we’ve been keeping the train rolling for the last year and a half. So we’re producing things for the company, which means we sit with writers and help them break story and offer thoughts, and then we write one or two movies a year for the company. And Chris is right, that first one we hope to get out next year, because it’s a very interesting, and I think, important, story to be told.
The Playlist: In fact, it was just in the news 24 hours ago. I was just watching that clip a couple hours ago.
Stephen McFeely: Of AOC?
The Playlist: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that may be another movie where you’re writing it till the end.
Stephen McFeely: Well, that’s a great point [Laughs.]
“Avengers: Endgame” will be available on Disney Plus in December.
