The relationship between legendary comedienne Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) and her generationally funny comedy writer Ava Daniels (Hannah Einbinder) has provided both laughs and poignant drama over three seasons of “Hacks.” Despite the show’s entertainment industry trappings, most viewers can recognize the sometimes combustive but almost always creative dynamic between the two characters. What Einbinder, now a three-time Supporting Actress in a Comedy Series nominee, has discovered, however, is that in Hollywood itself, it’s not comedy writers who relate to Ava. No, it’s the assistants to some of the biggest stars in the world.
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During an interview with The Playlist this week, Einbinder reveals, “I had a very famous pop star, one of the most famous pop stars’ assistants come up to me and be like, ‘You are me. Ava is my life. That is me. That is my life. I’m with her.’ Yeah, it is like successful assistants of successful people come up to me all the time and go, ‘I’m Blank’s assistant. This is so me.’
Was she shocked at this revelation?
“Not really. It tracks, you know what I mean? The dynamic,” Einbinder says. “I’ll even have these massive celebrity people come up to me and say, ‘I’m so Debra. Oh my god, I’m so her.’ And then they’re with their assistant. So, they all identify with the dynamic genuinely. It’s crazy.”
Yes, a lack of self-awareness in Hollywood is nothing new. But, hey, if a celebrity sees themselves in Vance, maybe it’s a first step in realizing they might actually be the problem. Or, as Vance continually demonstrates, maybe not.
(And, yes, we want to know who the major pop star is too.)
Throughout our conversation, Einbinder reflects on Ava’s dramatic choices in season three, why she thinks her character made said choices, whether Ava can ever balance a love life and her work goals, when season four is set to begin shooting, and much, much more.
Note: There are spoilers regarding the finale of “Hacks” season three in the context of this interview.
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The Playlist: Hannah, congratulations on your Emmy nomination.
Hannah Einbinder: Thank you so much.
Did it mean more the second time or did it feel, did you get the same thrill?
Yeah, it’s always a thrill I think. I mean, I feel this season I am the most proud of my work, or maybe I should say I am the most able to really feel proud of myself. It’s taken me a long time I think to be able to feel proud and not feel like that’s inappropriate or feel like having pride in myself is cocky or something. I’ve been able to be like, no, it’s nice. You can be proud of yourself. So, this time feels better than the first two, I think.
Do you think of yourself first as a comedian, standup, and an actor second? Or do you see them as equal now?
It’s an interesting question because I have always kind of toyed with what to call myself, and I have kind of just let go of that altogether is the answer. I feel like I am a performer, whether that is on stage or on film. I feel cool with just being both and feeling like both are a real part of my identity.
Because of several unfortunate events, including strikes and health issues, the third season was shot over essentially two years. Did you know where this season was going to end up for Ava before the strike?
I did. We get the scripts pretty much in groups of three and we got the finale script before the strike, but I didn’t look at it too much during the strike just to keep it fresh. But yeah, I think it was helpful to do that. I think Jean and I both operate from the place of it’s best to keep it as fresh as we possibly can.
When you read it, were you surprised at what Ava had done? Were you excited by it?
Well, I think both. I think I’m never able to predict where they take the show at the end of the season, so I was surprised, but I also felt excited because it was those final two big scenes for the two of us, for Jean and I, are territory that I have not really gotten to play in yet within this show. So, I was excited and hopeful that I would be able to deliver on that.
Granted, you’re never sure where they’re going to take the show, but what do you think Ava’s mindset is in snagging the showrunner gig? Is she doing this for herself and her own career? Is she doing this because she wants to get back at Deborah? Someone else might’ve just been like, “Screw it. I’m going to go do my own thing.” Why do you think she has maneuvered to take over Deborah’s big chance at a late-night talk show?
I think she is just hardening to the reality of the business and Debra and she deserves the spot and realizes that it is attainable if she’s willing to play ball the way Deborah does. And I think she feels justified after years of abuse to kind of say, “No, I am going to actually take a page out of your book” in this way.
This season Ave has had, I don’t want to say failings, but it just really hasn’t worked out romantically with the women she has dated. And there’s a moment at the end of the season where she essentially says to Deborah, you are going to die alone. And I’m wondering, is Ava setting herself up for the same lack of a relationship in her own career?
That is so interesting. I have never thought about that as a bit of foreshadowing. That’s really interesting. I would like to think that because constantly Deborah’s going, “You’re exactly like me,” through the whole series. She’s always saying that. And so I would hope that Ava is able to have enough self-awareness to recognize that that is true and that it doesn’t also have to be in every instance in every area of her life. I would hope she’d be able to get it together. I think Ava’s undying love and undying need to be adjacent to Deborah is still ever present, but I think she is doing this not necessarily totally to be close to Deborah, but also because she feels she deserves it. So, hopefully, that has shifted.
I hope it’s shifted! At the beginning of the season, in theory, Ava is at her happiest place. She has a girlfriend that she seemingly is connected to and loves. She’s working on a version of “Last Week Tonight” or “The Daily Show” that seems like it’s her dream gig. Do you think she’s truly satisfied or do you think that her willingness to jump when Deborah calls shows that this isn’t really what she wants to do?
I don’t think she’s truly satisfied in that life. I think she’s clearly after her going back and kind of enduring the same masochistic dynamic willingly of her own volition. I think she is just setting herself up. I think she does feel a little like there’s something missing. And I think we see that through her energy when she’s seeming in her good perfect life. She has good moments with her girlfriend, but as we start to see her texting Deborah and she’s just never where she is and completely absent from her life so quickly, it’s like she was never really fully there.
Do you think Ava ever wants to get in front of the camera?
No, I don’t think she does. I think she’s truly a writer who is happy to be funny and charming in a group of people, but I don’t think she possesses this specific type of sickness that would push someone in front of a camera.
But you love doing standup, right?
Of course. Doesn’t mean I’m sick. [Laughs.]
As someone who doesn’t like to be in front of the camera, I would have a fear of going out on stage and failing. What is the joy you get from it? Is it making people laugh? Is it the playing with danger of potentially failing?
There have been many answers to that question over the course of my doing standup. It used to be that I was looking for relief from feeling bad and I was looking to feel like I was a value to other people. And, as I have healed myself, it has become a way to connect and a thing that I enjoy. I just enjoy it. I love being at a comedy club or a theater or an alternative room. And I love hanging with the comedians and I love just the scene really. I love everything about it and I love writing. I love crafting jokes and it is the filter through which I see the entire world and everything in it. How my brain processes my reality is through writing jokes.
The writing on”Hacks” overall is great. Do you have to stop yourself from improvising? Or is there room for that?
They are so open to anything. They’re very open to ads. I will go over to them while we’re shooting and pitch lines. They’re really cool with that. And usually, it’s very rare that the scene isn’t totally complete and rock solid and so funny. If we have time, we’re. Lucia [Aniello] will be like, “O.K., do your thing on this one. Do whatever you want.” And that’s when we’ll improvise or add or find something. It can be fun sometimes.
One of the things that Lucia says about Ava is that she wants her comedy to mean something. To have a purpose. Do you think she can do that with a Late Night talk show? And do you feel like that is a natural conflict with whatever Deborah is going to want to do with the show?
I think Ava is hoping that it will be a feminist project and that it will be equal to or rather better than the arena of late-night that is male-dominated. I think she’s like, “I am familiar with this format and I can do my spin on it and make it better and elevate it and do it with a woman at the center.”
We are now four years into the show’s existence. You live in LA. Do you have female writers who come up to you and feel like they know Ava? Is there a connection?
Not as much from writers, but a lot from assistants.
Really.
I had a very famous pop star, one of the most famous pop stars’ assistants come up to me and be like, “You are me. Ava is my life. That is me. That is my life. I’m with her.” Yeah, it is like successful assistants of successful people come up to me all the time and go, “I’m Blank’s assistant. This is so me.”
Were you shocked the first time that happened?
Not really. It tracks, you know what I mean? The dynamic. I’ll even have these massive celebrity people come up to me and say, “I’m so Debra. Oh my god, I’m so her.” And then they’re with their assistant. So they all identify with the dynamic genuinely. It’s crazy.
That’s not a good thing necessarily. [Laughs.]
Well, it’s accurate.
It’s accurate. Listen, my last question for you is, I know it’s been a probably busy summer and you must be touring but do you guys know when you’re going back for season four?
Yeah, we’re going back very soon, this fall.
Oh, super soon.
I’m so excited.
Have they given you any teases? Or you’ll find out when you get the scripts?
I’m just waiting for the scripts.
“Hacks” season 3 is available on MAX