Since his directorial debut with “Slither” over 15 years ago, James Gunn has almost always defied conventions and his fans have loved him for it. He took the Marvel Cinematic Universe in a decidedly new direction with the “Guardians of the Galaxy” franchise and brought that same irreverence to “The Suicide Squad” last Summer. He followed that up with an episodic spin-off, “Peacemaker,” which was a massive success (at least according to HBO Max), and is currently hard at work writing the second season.
The eight-episode arc follows the title character (John Cena), a vigilante who is so narrow-minded in his life goal of achieving “peace” that he’ll kill anyone in his way to make it happen. Well, that’s where the character was when he debuted in “The Suicide Squad.” Over the course of the streaming series, Christopher Smith (his real name) faces a racist and literal Nazi father (Robert Patrick) and a group of new colleagues who try to usher him into common etiquette and appropriate behavior in the 21st Century. Gunn has dipped his toe into television previously but says he loved the serial writing process and the opportunity to really explore the show’s ensemble. What was more difficult was dealing with racism in a television show which he admits, “is a really tricky subject.”
“You know they do this thing a lot in movies and TV where they make Nazis, but they don’t actually make them Nazis, they make them something that’s kind of Nazi-like, but they aren’t actually,” Gunn says. “I don’t like that so much because it’s either a Nazi or it’s not a Nazi. And if you don’t have a Swastika then it can show in Germany because you’re not supposed to show Swastikas in Germany. There are all these rules and things like that. So, I don’t want to be too prissy around that stuff, but I’m also aware that when you have a character like Peacemaker’s dad who’s a completely racist and saying racist things all the time. I don’t want the show to become an avatar for Peacemaker’s dad. I want the show to be an avatar for Peacemaker’s struggle, in what he’s going through and what he’s been through growing up with a father like that when he isn’t a naturally hateful person towards other people. He doesn’t have an innate hate towards people of different ethnicities or whatever so what language do you use? What words do you use? I changed some things even in post that it just came out in a hurtful way as opposed to being a helpful way to the story. And so yeah there are things that I was really careful with and know that’s a big subject.”
Over the course of our interview, Gunn talks about the difficulties of writing season two, Peacemaker’s bisexuality, what’s next for him in the DC Universe, and much, much more.
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The Playlist: You had worked in television before doing “Peacemaker” but never to this extent. From your perspective, what was the toughest aspect of just creating this show?
James Gunn: Man, I’m being honest, it was such a joy to create the show, it really was. In terms of doing anything creatively, this was the peak for me so far in my life. So, I think that the one really difficult thing about it was COVID obviously. I was writing it at the very beginning of the COVID epidemic, and then we were shooting during COVID, so we were very, very tough with that on set, very much abiding by the protocols, not getting together with each other on weekends, and that sort of thing. So, it was a very strangely lonely existence while also being so exciting creatively because I had such a great collaborative feel with my producers Peter [Safran] and Matt [Miller] as well as the whole cast.
I know you had done some writing in the episodic format before, but I think it was “PG porn?”
Yeah. I mean, I did a lot of webisodes when webisodes were a big thing, and webisodes were going to be the future of everything. I was very big into webisodes early on doing stuff for Xbox, and for Spike TV, including “PG Porn” and a bunch of other things. And I did a lot of content like that which was really a blast, but it was nothing like doing the regular TV episode. My only real experience with regular TV was that I was a host on a reality show, so that was the only thing.
Screenwriting is essentially different than writing for television or in the episodic format. What did you enjoy about writing for TV?
I think that what I really loved about television and the reason why I’m doing a bit more and stayed up all last night working on “Peacemaker” season two, is the long-form of it all. I mean, in movies, the plot really is the boss when you have a two-hour film. Especially the type of spectacle films I make and character and action-driven things that I make. Every scene has to lead to the next, and there is no fat in a film. And part of what I enjoy on both stake and in creating the story is the bat, it’s the little interactions between people, it’s the nuanced relationships, and “Peacemaker,” although it’s a “superhero show” really is a show about the relationships of the main characters. So, we’re allowed to let those play out in such a way, and we’re allowed to let the dialogue scene go on for longer than we’ve allowed them to go on in a movie. We allow the comedic beats to go on longer than we do in a movie. So, I feel like that freedom for me was really revelatory.
When you got the green light for the show, was it always eight episodes or was it more open-ended?
I’m trying to remember the exact order because the truth is, I wrote five episodes before I ever…[I was] pitching it to all of the people at HBO after there were already five episodes written, which they didn’t know. And because I was just kind of depressed over the COVID of it all, I was trapped in this rental alone in Los Angeles and I just was writing to sort of soothe my own fears and sadness and so that’s what I was writing the TV show for, as opposed to necessarily thinking I was writing it for the world, although that, of course, was a hope the entire time. But I knew pretty early on it was eight episodes. Peter Safran was like, “Well, make it longer.” I knew that I couldn’t make it longer simply because once it became real that we were going to make this show, I had a very short amount of time to get it done before I was obliged to go off and shoot “Guardians Vo. 3.” So, doing more than eight episodes wasn’t possible, but it served the story that I was telling anyway, so it worked in that way.
So now that you’re working on season two, in theory, could it be more than eight episodes right? I don’t think you are committed to anything following yet?
I promised to do eight episodes, it could be more than eight episodes, but I really like things being the same. It’s unlikely that it would be more than eight episodes, but if I got into this story more heavily and said, “Hey, this really deserves 10 episodes,” then I would consider doing 10 episodes.
Having gone through the first season and now writing the second season, is it easier in a way because you already have the structural sort of built out in your mind from doing it the first time?
No. I think it’s harder because the reason I stayed up last night was I’ve been working on what’s the center of the story, and I wrote a sort of a whole thing on what the season was going to be and then I said, “That’s missing something.” It wasn’t as character-driven as I’d like. So I think it’s actually a little bit harder, yeah.
I hope you have an epiphany moment at some point and it becomes less hard.
Last night, I really did. It all came together, I saw the whole thing. Getting to this point has been like, “Eh, what should I do?” Whereas the first season I was just like, “O.K., no rules, what’s fun. Let’s do it.” And then that just went on that ride.
Wait, so you said “harder.” The first season has been so beloved by fans and critics, do you feel like there’s more pressure on you on season two?
Yeah. It’s all self-imposed of course because in reality there’s a lot less pressure because people are waiting for this show. And before the last season, everybody was like, “Who the f**k wants a show about Peacemaker? Now everybody’s like, “Oh, my favorite DC character is Peacemaker.” It’s a much different thing, it’s obviously much easier in terms of what we’re doing, and I know people fall in love with characters and I could see it.
I showed the show to people and I could see where they watched the first episode and enjoyed it in the second episode, but by the time they’re in the sixth and seventh, and eighth episode, the stakes are naturally way way higher, not because what’s happening in the story is higher stakes, but because people love the characters at that point, and they’re afraid of what’s going to happen, then how it’s going to affect their lives. So, yeah I think I feel some amount of loyalty to the fans. I’m committed to John, and Jen, and Danielle, and Steve, and Freddy and really just being true to all of their characters. I have to really give them something to do whereas, when I was writing the first season, if I wanted to decide to write Vigilante out of the whole season, I could have done that at any time. Now, I do have parameters that I’m working with, which is a little bit different. And there’s always that thing, I want to make something that’s different than the first season that people go, “Wow, “but also isn’t going completely off the track.
In almost everything you’ve done, you have always challenged your audience. You’ve always tried to do something different that maybe they wouldn’t expect, and that’s just inherent to your work. When you were making this series, was there anything that you thought maybe this is going to be too much for them?
Well, I think dealing with racism in a television show like this is a really tricky subject, man. I think that you know you want to be, you don’t, I don’t want to have the sort of… You know they do this thing a lot in movies and TV where they make Nazis, but they don’t actually make them Nazis, they make them something that’s kind of Nazi-like, but they aren’t actually. I don’t like that so much because it’s either a Nazi or it’s not a Nazi. And if you don’t have a Swastika then it can show in Germany because you’re not supposed to show Swastikas in Germany. There are all these rules and things like that. So, I don’t want to be too prissy around that stuff, but I’m also aware that when you have a character like Peacemaker’s dad who’s a completely racist and saying racist things all the time. I don’t want the show to become an avatar for Peacemaker’s dad. I want the show to be an avatar for Peacemaker’s struggle, in what he’s going through and what he’s been through growing up with a father like that when he isn’t a naturally hateful person towards other people. He doesn’t have an innate hate towards people of different ethnicities or whatever so what language do you use? What words do you use? I changed some things even in post that it just came out in a hurtful way as opposed to being a helpful way to the story. And so yeah there are things that I was really careful with and know that’s a big subject.
Along with John, you’ve created a Peacemaker of numerous contradictions. On one hand, he has no problem killing people and he still thinks he stands for the red, white, and blue, whatever that might be, but he’s also inherently progressive and liberal in other ways that you would not expect for him, including feeling free to tell anyone that he’d sleep with a guy or a girl or he’s bi or whatever. So was that an idea you always had back on the movie? Was that something you and John came up with for the series?
That was John, it definitely was born with John and then progressed with me through the making of the show. He’s a character, who is he is Leota Adebayo’s opposite politically in every way. And that means he’s a pretty conservative guy and not very well-read on the subject, he believes everything he reads, and she’s very progressive and he’s not. But also in a lot of ways, she’s very conservative, she’s in a marriage, she’s monogamous, she probably hasn’t had many sexual partners, and Peacemaker is the kind of anything goes, and he always has been that way, I think that’s just his sexuality. That was something that really John when he was riffing, he seemed to have a thing for Idris’ character on the set in mind, that wasn’t quite returned from a Bloodsport. That was something really that just came from me and John talking. And also John and I talked a lot about how here he was this character who seemed like he was the character who would be dominant, he’s good looking, he’s muscular, he’s actually got the Gift of Gab, he’s got all those things and yet he still feels completely awkward in social situations, and he feels like he’s the oddball in this group of oddballs in the Suicide Squad. And there’s a sadness to that, a misrepresentation of who he is as a human being at all times which, disallows him from becoming close to other people. And that was something John and I talked a lot about on the set of “The Suicide Squad” just in between takes, and when we went to dinner and things like that.
I don’t want to project onto the character that you and John have created in that, but do you feel that Peacemaker is an amalgamation of what America is in a way that both liberals and conservatives don’t necessarily realize that there could be – and I hate reducing it to this – someone in the middle?
I think of him as a character first and foremost, I don’t think of him as an amalgamation of traits, I think of him as this guy. But I do think his story, and especially his story in conjunction with the other characters is one about how we do consistently miscategorize the United States as something other than what it is. And it’s a miscategorization born of social networking, it’s a miscategorization born of Twitter largely, but also Facebook largely, in which extremes rise to the top. So, Liberals think of all Conservatives as this extreme thing and Conservatives think of all Liberals as this extreme thing. When the truth is when you get to your ordinary American now at this point people are pretty split in terms of who they vote for, but they aren’t split in terms of when you get down to what their actual beliefs are. When you ask people what they actually believe about taxes, what they actually believe about trans rights, what they actually believe about gay marriage, what they actually believe about these things, abortion, things aren’t as split as it seems to be in our culture. It’s all a function of social networking thriving off of conflict, and thriving off of people getting angry, and people’s own addiction to their own outrage and anger. So, I think that “Peacemaker “is about that. I think that we do see characters Leota and Chris who seem like they’re so completely different, and if they met on Twitter, they’d probably be screaming at each other, but because they meet in person they fall in love with each other in a non-romantic way, in a way that they like each other. They have a similar sense of humor, they have a similar rhythm to the way they talk, and we see it from the first time they meet each other. And she does have a lot to teach him about the way of the world. He’s been in prison for four years he’s missed The Me Too movement. She’s able to teach him like what the world is like, he’s really in a little bubble. She’s from Gotham City, it’s a totally different place. And he in turn brings her into this magic world of DC, she’s the one in the first episode he says to her, “If you don’t believe in magic, that’s on you” when he tells her of his pet flying Eagle. So, when she gets to that moment and she sees that, that’s something that’s outside of what her purview of the world is, that’s outside of her vision of the world. She sees a much bigger world. In a way, “Peacemaker” season one is Leota Adebayo’s origin story. She is really meant to be this other person, this super-spy field agent, and she’s called to do that in a way and she doesn’t see that in herself. And so he brings her into the magic world of superheroes, and magic in DC comics, and a sort of strange spiritual reality that Peacemaker has.
Well, thinking about Leota’s character, I know that you’re attached to work on the Amanda Waller series, and I think you’re an EP on it. I guess half my question is how involved are you in that? And then how involved is her character going to be in that series?
We haven’t even announced any TV series yet.
Oh, sorry, I thought it was public.
There are a lot of stories out there about what’s happening and some of them are accurate, and some of them are not. But I am working very seriously on another DC project, where I’m very involved in the writing and the direction of it. And I’m involved with a couple of other things too, and there will be some blending of the characters from “Peacemaker” in the other shows I’m working on.
And to continue on that topic, we should still assume Peacemaker is in the same universe as Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and The Flash?
Yes. He’s in that world, I mean, we have our own little corner of that. I think some people they take these universes very, very seriously and it’s hard for me, I do it on “Guardians” when I’m working on “Guardians Vol. 3,” and somebody says, “Well, but in, ‘Avengers: Endgame; Will said that.” And then I always jokingly say, “Well, that’s not canon.” I mean, when you’re working with different people taking on the same characters, and even when I have a lot of control as I do with the “Guardians” or whatever it could be difficult. But he’s still within the same world as Jason Momoa, Ezra [Miller], and those guys.
You’ve got all this stuff going on the HBO max side, but is there been any talk of another “Suicide Squad” film? And I know things are in the mix now, I mean, just yesterday, Toby Emmerich left Warner Brothers and the new guy is coming in so people are curious if that’s changed things.
Yeah. We’ve talked about it, but the honest truth is I just have so many hours in a day to work on stuff. And I had such a fun time working in television that I really think that’s what I’m going to spend the next year of my life doing now that I’m in post-production on “Guardians Vol. 3.” But I’m thinking about what that next movie will be. And is that next movie going to be, if first of all, it could be something completely different than that. And I’m excited about Mike De Luca coming in frankly, because I’ve known him for a long time and I love Toby, but I’ve also known De Luca he’s been a friend of mine for many, many years.
Yeah. And what he did in MGM in two years is amazing.
That’s right. He’s a really, really smart guy who appreciates both genre filmmaking, and art films. So, he’s a guy who has a lot of appreciation for a lot of different types of stuff and we’re very like-minded in a lot of ways, and I’m excited to work with him. I’m not sure what I’m going to do next because it could be a movie outside of that, but it could be a DC movie that has to do with these characters. Does that mean it’s the Suicide Squad movie or something else that’s within that world or a little bit different than that? And that I’m not exactly sure.
Totally understand. My last question for you though is you talked about the difficulty of making this first season during a pandemic period, and now you’re about to shoot, or you’ll eventually later this year be doing “Peacemaker” season two in an easier environment, knock on wood, do you think you guys are going back to, I think you shot in Atlanta, right?”
No. We shot in Vancouver.
Oh.
And the reason we shot in Vancouver was because of COVID because at the time when I decided on where we were shooting the COVID cases were incredibly high in the United States and Vancouver was much better at keeping their cases down initially. Canada was in general. So, that’s why we went to Vancouver. I don’t know where for sure we’re going to shoot it. I had a great experience in Vancouver. I love the aesthetics of Vancouver because it’s a show that takes place in the Northwest and that’s a part of the show. So, whether we’ll be shooting partially in Vancouver, and partially in Atlanta, my filmmaking fam, my crew in Atlanta, I’ve worked with years. So, I’m very close to all of them from the PAs, to the camera operators, to all of them. That’s a real family to me. And frankly, I live part-time in Atlanta and part-time in Colorado, and Freddie Stroma who plays Vigilante lives in Atlanta, Danielle Brooks lives in Atlanta, and Jen Holland lives with me, so we spent so much time in Atlanta. And then John lives in Florida, so shooting at Atlanta would be much easier, but I do like the aesthetics of Vancouver and did have a great time with the crew shooting there. So, we’re trying to figure all that out, and we’ll pretty shortly, I think.
“Peacemaker” season one is available on HBO Max