In a summer of sparkling indie releases, may we suggest you take a detour to chilly London and Mikko Mäkelä’s “Sebastian”? Debuting at the 2024 Sundance Film Festival, this stylish drama centers on Max (Ruaridh Mollica), a young writer on the verge of landing a deal for his first full-length novel. The project centers on a fictional young sex worker who specializes in hookups with much older men. The twist? Max isn’t getting his intel on this phenomenon through a direct contact. He’s getting it first-hand. And, surprise, he might be enjoying it more than he thought he would.
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Mäkelä, best known for his 2017 feature debut “A Moment in the Reeds,” and Mollica who has a major role in the upcoming Sam Mendes and Armando Iannucci HBO series “The Franchise,” jumped on a Zoom earlier this week to take a deep dive into what makes “Sebastian” tick.
Oh, fair warning, there are minor spoilers throughout this conversation.
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The Playlist: Miko, this is a really hard movie to get made. What made you want to even commit to writing this?
Mikko Mäkelä: I think I was maybe a little bit, almost kind of naively believing in wanting to follow your voice in a sense. At that time when I started writing this, I just made “A Moment In The Reeds,” which was very much a micro-budget indie film that we weren’t asking for anyone’s permission in a sense, to make. So, I think I was very much still in that mindset of not even thinking about, it wasn’t really on my mind of what would get financed or what wouldn’t, but it was also about wanting to tell a story that I didn’t feel existed. Wanting to tell a sex-positive sex worker story. Move beyond that representation of sex work as a last resort profession or something that you can only go into because of trauma and you have to get out of for some reason and a job that you couldn’t enjoy for its own sake. And I guess I probably wanted to ask some kind of provocative questions from the audience in making it so no, I wasn’t thinking about financing at all when I started writing it, to be honest.
The Playlist: So Rauridh. this script comes your way. You’re asked to audition. I don’t know what the process was, but when you read the script, what was your initial reaction?
Ruaridh Mollica: Well, actually a similar one to what you were just talking about. I remember reading it and thinking, “This is amazing that this is happening and it’s now financed, in the casting process and this thing is being ready to be made.” And I thought that was initially so exciting in itself. And then it just came through as a self-tape request kind of thing. And even just from the character breakdown and the description of the film that was just in the initial email was so well thought out and well written that I just was like, “Oh, this is rare. This doesn’t come through very often.” And it was an audition for the, I guess, titular role and that was so exciting. And then I read the script that evening and I just devoured it and was so moved and I kind of became obsessed, actually maybe unhealthily, so in a stage where you’re not cast yet, but then I put a lot of work into my first tapes and then it just kept moving forward through the processes and started to become more real. Maybe I could get this, maybe this is going to happen. And then was blessed enough to get on so well with Nico as well when we first talked and met.
The Playlist: Rauridh, did you feel like you needed to do research or talk to anybody about those experiences? Did you know anyone in your life who is in this line of work and did that help at all with the performance?
Ruaridh Mollica: I mean, definitely my friend circle is more in the Onlyfans world, but I did do a lot of online research. There are a lot of really good interviews with sex workers in the current age just talking about their work. And that was really amazing to just see people’s joy around their work and their freedom. And they talk about the journey of telling their families and getting more comfortable with it just being their job title. But I did find mainly what was in the script to be of most use just because Max’s journey with sex work begins from the first page when he first experiences it for the first time himself. So it was more of a journey that was gone on with the character through what he learns and understands. And obviously, it’s a more specific approach to sex work, doing it initially for the purpose of writing. So it was definitely a slightly different angle as well that was more explained through the story in the script.
The Playlist: Mikko, there is a portion of the film that finds Max stuck in Brussels after making a mistake with a longtime client. He’s met this guy who’s slightly closer to his own age at a bar, but he’s needs to make some money and get safely home. And that’s the moment where I remember watching the movie going like, “Oh no, don’t do this. Don’t ask him to pay for a hookup. It’s not going to end well.” And he does so anyway. What was Sebastian’s thought process at that time? Is he just so desperate to go home, he’ll do anything? Is he in a fog because of what he’s gone through?
Mikko Mäkelä: I think in that moment is the end of that journey of empowerment or it is a reversal where in a sense it’s kind of the first time he’s begun doing it for other reasons. And the money was never the issue. But then I guess it was for me, a place to then really turn the tables for him and kind of show the naivety of that initial impulse in getting him to the place where it is the ironic reversal where now he’s resorting to sex work for the money, but also, and it’s also the time when he no longer feels empowered by it. So it is meant to be kind of a dark moment in a sense, and especially what happens to him right afterward. And it’s kind of a reversal of also him spitting at the beginning as well after the first client. But I think it was to show that he’s kind of become there in a way through his loss of control, become the person who he didn’t think he was in a way as well.
The Playlist: Is that how you saw the scene Ruaridh?
Ruaridh Mollica: Yeah. I think Max had just been through a really difficult traumatic night. And a lot of the time when his work life wasn’t so strong, Max turned to his clients for this sense of almost validation and this feeling of doing well because there was something that he could do well and enjoyed. And I think after that moment he had in Brussels, I feel like he also turns it to it again because he’s seeking a bit of respect and validation and to feel good about himself again as well. And I think obviously he’s not met with that and that sends him even more down this emotional spiral.
The Playlist: I also wanted to reflect on the relationship that Max has with Nicholas, an older client played by Jonathan Hyde. Miko, how did you see this relationship by the end of the movie? Are they just close friends? Does Max see Nicholas as his peer? Or are you leaving it up to interpretation?
Mikko Mäkelä: I think I wanted to leave it up to interpretation in the sense that, of course, there were suggestions that are they going to end up together but I felt like I wanted the story to close as Max’s story, so I didn’t want his conclusion or his happiness or anything to be dependent solely on finding one person or being with one person. So, it’s left open-ended for a reason, but I think we can suppose that they would be close friends and maybe continue the sexual relationship as well. But I really wanted to leave the film with Max being whole by himself.
The Playlist: How did you see it Ruaridh?
Ruaridh Mollica: I do think part of me really wanted them to fall into this dynamic, beautiful relationship. But I do think there’s so much mentorship and love in that relationship as well that I do think that maybe like Michael was saying, it does flow through this close friendship sexual thing. But I do think inherently it’s love and a mentor and a father-type figure that they’re continuously teaching and learning from each other and sharing experiences together. And obviously, they get on so well. I do think their love is definitely true.
The Playlist: It’s a given that there were going to be a number of sex scenes in the film. Was it tougher to pull off than you thought it would be? Was it sort of workmanlike? Can you talk about that experience?
Ruaridh Mollica: For me, I think it was actually much easier than I thought it was going to be. I think we had an incredible intimacy coordinator who was responsible for really cultivating these relationships with other actors and making us really safe and trusting each other. And then Miko was brilliant at directing and finding beautiful moments of emotion to convey everything. And they ended up just being really, really fun. Something that I was so nervous about at the beginning became some of the most fun and easygoing scenes because you could really just lose yourself in it.
The Playlist: And how did you approach the Mikko? Were you nervous? Were you like, this is just part of the job?
Mikko Mäkelä: I don’t think I was nervous so much because I had experience shooting tech scenes for previous projects, but of course, there were still more of them in this film. It was my first time working with an intimacy coordinator because that position didn’t exist yet when I made my first feature. So, it was then more about finding that new structure. And I think it worked really, really well because they are such important scenes. They were, of course, already quite detailed in the script. And because it is never about the fact of just the characters having sex is always about what is this particular scene saying about Max’s journey at this moment and his reactions to these different encounters in different contexts. They were always very detailed and the way we approached, we were going through the script with Ru through lots and lots of conversations in detail, kind of working through every scene and what’s happening here.
And then when we were in pre-production, we had rehearsals for all of them based on what was in the script, but then lay down a more detailed choreography, which we were then able to refer to on the shoot day when we had a closed set. The intimacy coordinator worked through trust exercises and things too, which I found as a director to be really, really helpful on this film where almost every scene was with different co-actors. So of course it was crucial for there to be someone on set who was able to build that trust between you guys so quickly as well. And then it was just about, as a director shooting sex scenes, I feel like a lot of the work has almost been done by the time the time the camera rolls. And then for me, it became more about how are we capturing this whilst the actors are honing the performance.
The Playlist: Max’s character is sort of inspired by his “hero,” Brett Easton Ellis who he has a chance to interview in London at the beginning of the film. You even use a video clip from an interview with Brett in the movie. In the production notes you talked about how you were inspired by him as a writer who takes aspects of his own life and incorporates it into a story. Has he seen the movie? Or will he just see it in theaters like most moviegoers?
Mikko Mäkelä: No, no. He has actually seen the film and we invited him to the premiere at Sundance. He wasn’t able to make it, but he did watch it and send a very, very nice note. We were a bit trepidatious about what he would feel about it, but he apparently very much enjoyed it. So, that was great to get his response.
The Playlist: Before I let you guys go, I’m super curious about what’s next. Ruaridh do you have any other projects in the pipeline?
Ruaridh Mollica: For me, I just finished this HBO series called “The Franchise” that Sam Mendes created with John Brown and Armando Iannucci. And it’s a big comedy, totally different world comedy thing, and that’ll be out in the fall, I think, which is super exciting.
The Playlist: Congratulations.
Ruaridh Mollica: Thank you.
The Playlist: What about you, Miko? Have you been working on anything new?
Mikko Mäkelä: Yeah, so I am working on adapting a finished novel set against the backdrop of the Kosovo War. It’s a queer love story that’s due to be a miniseries. I’m beginning kind of the writing that, and then I’m also working on a film that’s set during the AIDS epidemic in London in the late eighties, which will hopefully shoot next year, but it is still early days in terms of it is not written by myself, that one.
“Sebastian” is now playing in select theaters.