As you’ve probably heard, English filmmaker Edgar Wright—in the hope of backing the entire film industry and film publications—has curated the new issue of Empire magazine. The idea is celebrating movies in every aspect, theatergoing, etc., and Wright has really been leading the charge over in the U.K. with his lead-the-charge enthusiasm. It’s a noble effort, to be sure, and the issue contains many famous guests, but there’s one who wasn’t able to write a piece before the deadline at Wright’s request: his good friend Quentin Tarantino. While that’s a disappointment to readers and Wright, Empire’s possibly got the next best thing. A three-hour podcast chat with Wright, Tarantino, moderated by Empire’s Chris Hewitt.
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As you’d probably expect, they talk about a lot of movies and their moviegoing experiences, fascinating conversations about James Cameron’s “Aliens” (which Tarantino raves about as the rare horror sequel that can still raise stakes even though the mystery of the monster is gone), “The Terminator,” Alfred Hitchcock’s “Psycho,” and many stories about their own films like “Hot Fuzz,” “Shaun of The Dead” and Tarantino’s penchant for revenge movies, centering a lot on “Once Upon A Time In Hollywood” and “Django Unchained” in this particular discussion.
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One, perhaps, major surprise is Tarantino’s love for Todd Phillips’ “Joker,” which he calls “profound,” eventually, anyhow. The conversation turns to the idea of subversion in cinema—getting an audience to laugh at something really perverse, violent, or distressing. For example, something that Tarantino loves to do has done it through much of his career obviously puts in the highest of regards. So, when discussing subversion, this lights up Tarantino to talk about what he loves about “Joker.”
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“Subversion on a massive level, audience response, cause and effect on the screen, the feeling the atmosphere in the theater change; we’ve talked about all these things. [However], the talk show sequence in the ‘Joker’ encompasses all of these things on a profound level, a level that is over most viewers’ heads to tell you the truth.”
As he is wont to do, Tarantino builds the story up, discussing how he has pros and cons about the movie, that it is well-paced and very efficient, but a “little one-note,” and gets a little cynical about its main concept. “Is this where we live now? Take great movies from the ‘70s and redo them as pop-cultural artifacts?” he asked rhetorically? ‘Taxi Driver’ as the ‘Joker,’ ‘Apocalypse Now’ as ‘Ad Astra,’ is everything some weird pop culture artifact of a challenging movie from another time?”
He digresses and gets to the story. He thinks the Joker is fine, but when it gets to the talk show scene—when Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker goes on his “we live in a society rant” and kills Robert De Niro’s talk show host he’s absolutely gobsmacked and deeply impressed because he sees it as an incredible subversion hard to pull off in cinema. “Then it gets to the talk show scene, and you feel the ENTIRE atmosphere in the theater change,” he says with rising fervor and enthusiasm. “It’s not suspense; they are beyond suspense. They are riveted. Everybody in the audience is completely plugged in.”
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And Tarantino says the “Joker” was an amazing theater movie that you did a disservice to yourself with if you saw it on an airplane, streaming, or anywhere that wasn’t with a big audience in the cinema. “You got a hand job as opposed to great sex… [or a] threesome.”
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“The subversion on a massive level, the thing that’s profound is this: It’s not just suspenseful, it’s not just riveting and exciting, the director subverts the audience because the Joker is a fucking nut,” Tarantino explained. “Robert De Niro’s talk show character is not a movie villain. He seems like an asshole, but he’s not more of an asshole than David Letterman. He’s just an asshole comedian, talk show guy.”
He continued. “He’s not a movie villain. He doesn’t deserve to die. Yet, while the audience is watching the Joker, they want him to kill Robert De Niro; they want him to take that gun, and stick it in his eye and blow his f*cking head off. And if the Joker didn’t kill him? You would be pissed off. That is subversion on a massive level! They got the audience to think like a f*cking lunatic and to want something [they would never normally want]. And they will lie about it! [“Audiences] will say, ‘no, I didn’t [want that to happen]!,’ and they are fucking liars. They did.”
What’s great about Tarantino, no matter what you think of “Joker,” it’s hard to deny Tarantino’s take and passion. It’s a very long conversation, and if you want the full context, you should probably listen to the entire thing, honestly. It’s a great conversation, and kudos to Empire, and Wright for pulling it off. Listen to it below, and while you’re at it, why don’t you let us know how you feel about the “Joker.”