Joaquin Phoenix Talks ‘The Sisters Brothers,’ Trauma, Empathy & Masculinity [Interview]

John’s known for a lot of comedic roles, at least in more recent years, and you’re known for serious roles and then dynamic is flipped in this film.
Sure, but I don’t think I ever thought about it that way. Their energies… you just approached the character you go. This is a person that says life is always on the edge. Charlie has no use, no concept for the future. Like he has this bizarre fantasy of like lounging, right? Being surrounded by women, like this fantasy of wealth and riches, but he doesn’t really know how to plan things.

So, when Eli talks about the future and change, Charlie is like…”what are we going to do??” Charlie just can’t even understand that way of thinking, leaving the life they lead. It’s like, “what are you talking about??” He’s just a person that’s strictly in the moment.

And I have to say, John was so beautiful and sincere. I was so delighted with the work he was doing. He was such an anchor, so completely honest about the work. I can’t remember the last time I worked with an actor with that was that committed and honest, like in every moment. John would always ask “Why [about every decision]? Why doing that?” He never stopped questioning and asking Jacques and how committed he was, was really impressive.

The idea of change and men afraid of change. Your character Charlie is terrified of his brother leaving him in this movie though he absolutely never shows it which is, as part of you say, part of his manipulative power moves. They’re also obviously both emotionally ill-equipped to express any of this in any meaningful way. It’s like Charlie wouldn’t have a clue what to do with himself if he wasn’t in this life killing people, and not knowing who you are and forsaking your identity is scary for anyone, no matter what.
You forget the nightmares by creating new ones. The only way to avoid the past is just to keep piling new shit up, which is really bizarre. Like there’s no concept of therapy for Charlie or these guys. When Eli’s sensitivity and his awareness of the world starts bubbling up— something that’s always been there for him— when that starts progressing, it scares the fuck out of Charlie because he literally doesn’t understand it.

It’s a different language. It’s frightening and he feels Eli pulling away. I’ve thought about them almost like a lover. Here’s your best friend and when someone is going through a change; they’re evolving and growing and you can sense that and it fucking scares you. You would think you’re the type of person that would go, “I want you to be happy in whatever you want to do,” but sometimes we’re not like that.

So much of that feels like it’s about what it means to be a man, since that’s such a kind of theme in the film. We never talk about that stuff.
How we identify as being men now. People didn’t consider it then. It was a fucking labor, every day was a task, everybody struggled. “I’m just going to the fucking well to get water.” But it does examine these different facets of masculinity in a way the character’s mirror each in some ways. In some ways, Jake [Gyllenhaal’s] character, my character, they want to be who the other one is. There’s part of him that’s taking on this job [he plays a kind of detective assigned to bring a prospector to the Sisters Brothers] because he wants to be quote-unquote a man. My character wants to be a bit like him. I want to be educated and wealthy and so that there’s interesting dynamics between all the characters.

I was thinking of the total arc of your career, the path of it and “I’m Still Here”—
Do I have to talk about that movie?

Well, I guess I just still see it as a turning point. It’s a sort of mark in the sand and—
I said some shit years ago and as much as any movie, it affects me and changes me in a way. [“I’m Still Here” was] probably just the perfect time in my life, a perfect age. I think I was looking for something… because I had just come off “Walk The Line” and “Two Lovers” and I needed something different.

I didn’t want to just make another movie, I don’t know how to explain it, but I needed something that was going to challenge me in a way that I’d never faced before. I guess it was a, whatever you want to call it, a breakthrough or something, but an important time in my life and my career. There was something about not being cautious; being as dangerous as possible. Possibly because of the success of, “Walk The Line.” It made me nervous that I would be cautious in my choices. I think subconsciously the thing that was really to challenge me was going to be danger.

You mentioned “Two Lovers” a James Gray film. I love all your collaborations. Will we see more?
We fucking better. Fucking call him, man, he’s done two without me and I’m pissed [laughs]. No, listen, “Lost City Of Z,” I love that movie. I can’t wait to see [Gray’s upcoming, reportedly fall 2018 film] “Ad Astra.” I cannot wait. So yeah, I hope, we do. I hope we pull [another] one off.

“The Sisters Brothers” is now playing in limited—Austin, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Houston, Los Angeles, New York City, Phoenix, San Francisco, Washington D.C.— release via Annapurna Pictures.