The 2025 BAFTA Awards longlists dropped and, breaking news, Michele Austin is still in the hunt. That was the story on Friday. 24 hours later, the veteran British actress won the most prestigious honor of her career, Best Supporting Actress from the National Society of Film Critics. A massive triumph not only for Austin but the Oscar hopes for Mike Leigh’s “Hard Truths“
READ MORE: Do Not Sleep On Marianne Jean-Baptiste’s Oscar-worthy Turn In “Hard Truths”
As Chantelle, Austin plays the somewhat happy-go-lucky sister of Pansey (Marianne Jean-Baptiste), who is anything but. They live in London with their adult children nearby, but Pansey is at an emotional breaking point. For Chantelle, she may finally be at a loss over how to help her sibling emerge from this depressive and angry funk.
During our conversation a few weeks ago, Austin reflected on what is now her fifth collaboration with Mike Leigh, the entricacies of his process, her collaborations with Jean-Baptiste, and much more.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
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The Playlist: We met at the Gotham Awards a few weeks ago for a hot quick second. You were with Marianne and I gave you guys a terrible anecdote that the Gothams are usually the rudest audience during the ceremony.
Michele Austin: I do remember you!
That was my seventh year at the show, and it was the nicest and quietest the audience has ever been.
Oh, that’s really funny.
So if you were wondering why people were actually quiet, I have no explanation, but I did feel like, oh wow. I set them up in a bad way.
But you know what though? I mean people were having a little chat and that was fine. But actually, we went to the bs, so the British Independent Film Awards on, was it Sunday or Monday? And they were pretty chatty. Nobody wanted to sit down. They were pleading with people to please sit down and have a meal. “Please, please. It’s really sit down.” And then a couple of people kind of lost the room. They didn’t read the room. A couple of winners actually, I’d say that was pretty rowdy, that one in comparison.
Well, now I want to attend the BIFAs. That’s on my bucket list now.
Yeah, I mean obviously because the “Kneecap” boys had about 50 people with them, so that was pretty full-on.
Let’s talk about “Hard Truths.” This is your third film with Mike Leigh, correct?
Fourth.
Fourth! Doh.
“Secrets and Lies,” “All or Nothing.”
Oh, yes.
“Another Year” and “Hard,” I mean “All or Nothing” is, I mean, blink and you will definitely miss me. I mean my character is sort of rushing through doorways, saying things as she walks through. It’s like a blink, blink one. But yes, it is the fourth one.
When you shot “All or Nothing,” did you still go through the entire process of eight or nine months of rehearsal?
No. On “All or Nothing”? He knew that he had a character that worked in a particular place and he needed some actors to be her coworkers. So, I came in for a few weeks, but you still do the process. It’s obviously very short in comparison, but you still choose somebody with him to base your character on and create a little history for them and develop a little work history with that main character. So, it’s still the process. But yeah, it was, I mean it was like a couple of weeks, but I did, it was a care home, so I don’t what you call an old people’s home here?
We call it a nursing home.
Yeah, a nursing home. So, a character was based in a nursing home, so I actually still have to go and do some research. Thy did send me off to a nursing home where I did learn how to winch an old person in and out of a bath and the whole thing. I mean, it is nuts. It’s nuts what we do with him.
Well, that’s what I was going to ask. When you get the call for a new project from Mike is there trepidation? Does the process seem daunting?
Only good, daunting, good nerves, good nerves, that it’s going to be some of the best experiences as an actor that you’re going to get. You are collaborating not just with him, but with this incredible team. So you’ve got Jacqueline Durran, who is an amazing costume designer. Suzie Davies is the production designer. Nora Robertson worked on this in the makeup. [Cinematographer] Dick Pope of course, who we lost a few weeks ago. So it’s going to be hard work, but it’s going to be good work. And especially I think at this point in my career, I’m aware that these opportunities and these chances to work in this way are very few and far between. So, it’s a kind of grab with both hands. I mean, you don’t know if you’re going to end up with a massive part or not or all of those things. I mean, I was kind of aware that I’d have something to do because we just said this is the fifth time working with him because I’d done a play with him previous to all of that. And so I mean, he’d kind of said, “It’s time to do something a little bit more with a little bit more substance,” but dunno which way it’s going to go. You sort of set off on the journey with him really.
Is it the same process for his stage work?
It is. God, it was a long time ago. But yeah, it is the same process. Still build the characters in the same way and build the relationships. And in the play, me and Marianne were sisters. That’s when we first met actually.
Oh really?
Yes, that was in 1993. You still do it the same way and you still build the play on the set. So, it’s almost like you’re rehearsing up until the point at which the play starts. And, then he constructed what scenes he wants. And the scenes are developed through improvisation. And there’s a script supervisor there who’s writing everything down and he changes things. You do it again, he changes characters, maybe motivations and things. And then very slowly he scripts it through the improvisations, but also he adds things and takes things away and suggests things until you come up with the play. But you only ever know what your character knows. There were four of us that were involved in the bit of work that I was working on, but we knew there was a massive company. There was about a company of about 20 actors, and we had no idea what they were doing. No idea. And so when we came to do the tech rehearsal, we turned up and we realized that all the other actors were doing stuff that was based a hundred years ago, but set in the same area. So, it was kind of like minds blown. I mean, I had a little inkling because in the play my character saw a ghost, which was possibly one of the scariest things I’ve ever had to improvise in my life.
Wait, really?
So yeah, we did this improvisation and it was late at night and we talked about what my character was going to go and do, and she was going to go and clean the kitchen. She’d done something terrible, so she needed to go and clean the kitchen. I come onto the stage, which is the living room, and there is an actress on the stage in sort of 19th-century clothes, slowly scrubbing the floor and I fucking lost my sh*t. I screamed the place down, screamed the place down until obviously a bit of my brain went because I just had no idea because there was just that moment of going, “What the f**k is happening?” Because it’s dark. The theater was completely dark and there was just this woman, it’s nuts, man.
I have a question about this that ties into “Hard Truths.” Did Mike keep that reaction in the play?
Yes.
Did the audience laugh or were they scared?
No, no, because of all the light, it was just terrifying. It was kind of like a little epilogue in the play. So right at the end of the play, spoiler – she’s because she’s killed her husband – and she strangled her husband and she’s not sleeping and stuff. And yes, we kept it in. The actress was just slowly scrubbing and my character came in and just dropped to the floor and started to scream. I mean, it was terrifying.
The reason I asked that is when I spoke to Marianne, she talked about the fact that before she saw “Hard Truths” with an audience at TIFF and she did not know or did not realize that there would be parts that would be as funny to people as they were. But she was pretty sure Mike knew that was his. Were you surprised when you saw that reaction?
Funny? No, I wasn’t a hundred percent sure because I mean, obviously, I knew that bits that we had worked on when Chantelle is doing Pansy’s hair, I mean those things that made me laugh. I was sort of aware that that was funny. But I suppose the first time I saw it, I was so shocked by just the power of her, I dunno what you would call it. Just how disturbed she was that I was quite shocked by it. And the second time around, I was kind of able to take it in a little bit more. I mean, the first time you see a Mike Leign film [you’re in], it’s quite mental because you don’t know what’s going on as far as you are concerned. This is a film about you. This is a film about my character and what my character does. And then suddenly you’re confronted with six other realities. I have to say the Toronto reaction. It was extraordinary to feel those kinds of wiffs of laughter was def mind-blowing and very moving. And then also how quiet it got at the end. Yeah, we were very moved by it. But yeah, I’m surprised at just how many laughs it gets. And also just the very small details that get laughs are sort of wonderful too. Yeah, he’s a genius.
You mentioned again that every actor thinks it’s their movie and their character. I’ve seen the movie twice and what strikes me about it is just how different Chantelle and Pansy are, yet they grew up together. There’s like five years between them, at most?
They’re supposed to be three years between them. And that’s the same between me and me and Marianne.
How did you realize that this is Chantelle and she has had such a different experience than her sister?
I mean obviously the character’s based on people that Mike has chosen with you. So obviously that’s the basis for who she is. So, there are certain characteristics and qualities about the people that she’s based on, which sort of inform everything. But I don’t want to speak for Mike, but I certainly feel like he’s talking about kind of sibling relationships and we sort of all know those difficult ones and have them in our families and all of that. And I certainly have cousins who are completely different and have completely different versions of what is going on in their family, which is really different versions about how nice, good, or kind their parents are to them. I think that is a human condition that we feel, and it’s primal. It’s that feeling that, “Is my parent giving me the same as my brother or sister? Are they treating me the same? Am I getting the same?” I mean, I certainly remember it with my children. My children are seven years apart and my daughter, once she could speak, was fighting for exactly the same thing as her brother, even though she was three and he was 10, she wanted it, she needed it, she had to have it. So yeah, [Chantelle and Pansy are] different, but I feel like that’s sort of what a lot of families are like. Especially if you are the kind of person who finds people easy, which I think Chantel is that kind of person. She’s curious about people. She wants to enjoy her life and she finds enjoyment in a small bit of the world and her daughters, and she’s happy sitting in her pajamas, stroking her daughter’s feet, you know what I mean? Some people, they find they have joy.
Marianne told me that on Mike’s projects, you all have a history and a backstory for the characters before the film even starts.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And she doesn’t want to give anything away about what those histories are. But in your mind, is there, there’s something that Chantelle recognizes as to why her sister is this way. Does she know or is she at this point where she just doesn’t understand anymore?
Oh gosh. I mean, I don’t want to put too many ideas into people’s heads. We’re going to see it. But I think it’s sort of said in the film, really. She says it in the film, in the cemetery scene. She loves her, but she doesn’t understand her. And so I think it has been a lifetime of, for both of them going very different ways and one sister being very insular and another one being quite expansive. I mean, that’s a really difficult one to answer without sort of explaining the characters away. And I think in all the backstory stuff that we did, that was always the case that there were always things that somebody doesn’t like or finds difficult and somebody just doesn’t have a problem with. What I think there was always that thing growing up with them, that pPansy found many things challenging and struggled to have friends and all those things, and Chantel was the exact polar opposite to that.
Marianne also said that the scene where Pany breaks down in Chantelle’s home, that it was shot as one long take eight times. Is doing a scene like that draining?
I mean, that particular day was those particular sets of days at the cemetery and the brunch, yeah, they were draining. However, and I’m sure Marianne said this, Mike is very, very particular about being in and out of character. This is not a set where people are remaining in character for 10 hours. It’s very much the character and it’s your time to warm up into character and to come out of character. He very, very clearly wants to say, “It’s not you, you’re not playing you, you’re playing somebody else.” So with that in mind, even though those days were really tough, we laughed a lot. The five of us were kind of hysterical at some points. It was a really lovely early summer, it was very warm. So we were in this other room with the fans going, Marianne never, never took that jacket off the whole time. She was just like, “If I take it off, I’ll never put it back on again.” So she was roasting and yeah, we laughed a lot. I think it was just the release of not being in that really, because it’s quite a small flat, As you can see, there’s not enough space for people to sit around the table.
There could not be anything on the other side of that camera from that semi-wide shot in the film.
No, no, it’s a tiny flat, which is right. It’s the right space for those people in London. That’s how a lot of people live. So yeah, it was intense in terms of doing it over and over again. I think there is something about even being in character or whatever about seeing somebody that you care for in so much pain. And I find it really difficult to watch those scenes still because there’s a lot of pain in there. And that’s not me going, “Oh, aren’t I doing a good job? Or isn’t she?” I just feel the rawness of it. And yeah, I mean Marianne did do it about seven times, I reckon. I mean that’s the truth of it. I think we were all in character, but those reactions are sort of were those reactions and to a greater or a lesser extent. So you’re so grounded in your character that even though it’s hard work, you know what you’re doing, you don’t feel like you are searching stuff. I think sometimes when you do scripted work and when you do scripted work and it says “At that point she breaks down and then she gets very upset” and you start thinking, “I dunno if that, is that in the right place?” Do you know what I mean?
It doesn’t feel natural.
Yeah, sometimes the writer writes and then there’s a terrible thing that happens here and you think, “Well, I hope so.” But dredge through all of the things. So I suppose what Mike is very good at is throughout all of our rehearsals, he’s setting up all of the tensions, All of the little bombs and little things that might go off. And he’s doing that all during rehearsals, the things that you like that they don’t like, the things that you still argue about. All of that stuff is being weaved in because he’s kind of God in it. He was the one who decided that Pearl died, but we created this character of Pearl in our heads, me and Marianne, and we really created her. She had a full life and there was the whole thing and the holidays and where she worked and who their dad was, and you create it all. And one day he killed her and we were devastated. So, it’s very clever what he does and I think it’s hard to explain, but yeah, he creates all the little stress points that are all going to come to fruition at some point. Yeah, he’s a puppet master.
Mike is 81 now, I think, and I am curious, I don’t know what the experience was making this, this was like a year and a half ago. Do you think he’s got another movie or two in him? Do you think he can go through this process again?
Yeah, I think he definitely got another movie in him and they’re talking about it. I mean, what was really interesting about Mike is, yeah, he’s an older man. Of course, I think rehearsals are grueling. They’re long and he’s in every day. He’s in every day for rehearsals for those three months or whatever, but when you get onto set with him, he gets a little buzzy, then it’s like he really comes into his own. So yeah, I think he will have another movie. And I think what’s grueling is flying from New York to home and then we’re going to LA and I think doing all of this stuff, it can be quite grueling for him. But yeah, I think there’s definitely going to be an untitled 25 probably. Let’s see.
“Hard Truths” opens in limited release on Jan 10
