Nicholas Britell is an Emmy winner. He should be an Oscar winner (someday. And, don’t even get us started on the fact he hasn’t been recognized once by the Grammys yet. But the composer of “Moonlight,” “The Big Short,” “The Underground Railroad” and “Don’t Look Up” has made a name for himself. And the project he’s most known for is “Succession.”
At this point, the opening theme of the Jesse Armstrong created series is recognizable around the world. But even in its third season, Britell has been able to incorporate new themes and an even grander scale (if possible) to the score. The season finale, perhaps one of the best episodes of the series ever, ends on a truly dramatic note. Britell says that Armstrong once suggested he use a choir and, for this episode, Britell thought he’d experiment with that idea. The resulting orchestration turned out to be truly epic.
“I think voices, that kind of a vocal element, is the only possible escalation of sound that I think I could do at this [point]. I mean, I’ve done strings and winds and brass and 808s and beats but we’ve never done the voice,” Britell says. “It was only at that exact moment of the actual closure of the season that it felt like the place to do it. And for me, that was an experiment too. I didn’t know for sure that that was going to work, but I felt like that was the moment. And for this piece, I just used the word ‘amen.’ Because to me, it felt like that word says a lot, but it’s one word. It doesn’t say too much. It implies a lot of different things that we may be thinking about, both for this season and for the show in general, without giving too much away.”
During the rest of our conversation, Britell discusses his long creative process for each season, teases his upcoming score for the new “Star Wars” series “Andor,” reminds us, yes, he is also composing “The Lion King” prequel, and much, much more.
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The Playlist: Obviously, I want to first start with “Succession.”
Nicholas Britell: Sure.
How much of a heads up does Jesse give you in the terms “Hey, by the way, we’re going to be ending at this insanely dramatic episode that you might want to prepare a little bit more for.” Does he give you that sort of notice?
No, actually. I mean, on the one hand, I get huge amounts of time before the season starts, where I do my own kind of brainstorming. And also, this season we were going to do the year the pandemic started.
2020. Yeah.
So, I actually had a little more time even than normal. Because I started thinking, “Oh, I’m doing this in, you know, 2020, and then it didn’t happen.” But in some ways, there’s a lot that I do know, but then in a way too, maybe that’s my own personal thing. I also like kind of knowing where things start, having a sense of the shape and the outline, but there’s also a nice kind of creative mystery, I think too, to not knowing everything right at the top.
But does Jesse at least say to you, “Hey, this is the direction of the season, this is the narrative theme”?
Totally. I mean, we had wonderful early conversations and we talked about it, and it’s really, I think in some sense it’s more like the macro of it. You know what I mean?
Right.
Obviously season two ends, figuratively like a bomb went off, basically. And what’s the feeling of season three? That’s what I like to sort of think about. And Jesse and I actually, in hindsight, it feels like we always thought we were going to do this, but [on the first season] it just sort of worked out this way, that I had this framework of like the first movement of a symphony. And the first movement of a symphony in the classical era was sort of, it was like an allegro. Usually, it was like a slightly, not unbelievably fast, but a faster tempo. You’re setting your theme, you’re setting your tone. You’re sort of setting some of the ground rules. And it’s a lot of energy. Season two, I went into it with a thought of, “What if this is like the second movement of a symphony?” Which is, historically a second movement was like more of an adagio. Maybe a little more contemplative, more inward, more melancholy. Kendall’s journey. Maybe the tempo’s a little bit more subdued, but we’re in melancholy here, you know, that kind of vibe. So, the first kind of conversation I had with Jesse actually was, “You know, on this framework that we’ve now thought through a little bit, what if season three is the third movement of a symphony?” Which historically would’ve been of the classical four-movement kind of symphony, and I’m not saying that has anything to do with how many seasons there will be because we really don’t know.
Yeah.
But you know, the third movement it was usually in 3/4 time. So it was a different time signature. There would be, like, maybe it’s triplets, maybe you’re in 3/4, so there’s a little more instability in the rhythm. Which actually, and I started to think, “What if there was this more of a 3/4, triplet feel, where actually it’s less clear where stability is, where the center of power is?” And also historically, it’s interesting. People used to talk about the third movement of a classical symphony being a scherzo movement. And the etymology of that was actually from the Italian word for a joke. Which, and it doesn’t mean third movements are always funny, but I thought that was an interesting thing to play off of. Like, is there a sort of lightness, but also like an instability to this kind of a season, you know? In a way where, like, a bomb goes off. You don’t know where’s the center of power, who’s in charge, where are things going, who’s aligned with who? And Jesse tells me some of the shape of things. I knew about the wedding in Italy. I have a sense of the sort of, maybe almost like the geography of the season, in a way. And then I just start trying out ideas. Every season I feel has to have its own new themes. Certainly, there is this initial theme that the show has begun with now that somehow I sort of wink back to it at times, you know, with those chords. But every season I think it’s important that we have its own integrity of its own new themes, and its own new feeling, and its own new trajectories. And so with season three, there’s a lot of this new sort of, there’s some winding themes, there’s this theme that I call “Furioso in F Minor,” which is one of the first things you hear in season three, which is, it’s in 3/4, so you already have this sort of instability in the rhythm a little bit. And when I first started playing these for Jesse and sending some of them to him, he was into them right away. So I just sort of kept going. And we do the usual thing where I’ll do a lot of writing early on, just from reading a few of the scripts, just from talking to Jesse. Some of this even before I’ve seen any of the footage. This is just sort of the prelude to some of that. Because I find it’s very helpful, once things actually start getting shot and once things start getting edited, I think it’s helpful that we’re already having conversations where we have musical ideas.
Well, that was my question. Are the editors using some of these temp tracks to edit?
Absolutely. These become themes. They already have all of my music from seasons one and two, but what’s really nice is I try to do this so I can say, “Hey, here’s all these new season three ideas, let’s play around. And also it’s really helpful to hear, too, what’s feeling right to all of you.” And then I’ll have more conversations with Jesse where, they’ll say, “It’d be really great if we had more of this flavor.” So, it’s really this constant kind of back and forth that we have. And I would say once we’re really diving into the first episode, you don’t really know until you put it up against the picture.
Right.
There are always certain things that don’t work. I feel with “Succession” actually at this point, I have a pretty good sense, I think, of what is going to work. You know, like I have a pretty good sense. But that being said, I’m always pushing it in different places. And there are certain things that don’t find their way into the season. And sometimes maybe there’s a theme that I want to try out in a future season. But a lot of the ideas feel right, and then we get to evolve them and we get to see where they go and explore all those possibilities. And for me that’s really the most fun. Figuring out all the different ways that we can manipulate these ideas and turn them on their head.
I‘ll be totally embarrassed if I’m wrong, but didn’t you use a chorus in the finale episode?
In the very finale and that’s the first time we’ve done that in the show ever. I’ve never had voices. And to his credit, that was actually something, that was an early, early notion of Jesse’s for this season. He’s absolutely the most wonderful collaborator possible. Obviously knows the show so intimately, but also we have a really wonderful kind of back and forth with how we try these out. And he’ll sort of occasionally, offer an idea. He’ll say, “Have you thought about a choir? You know, is there a universe where that might make sense?” And then I’ll actually do experiments with that and try it out. And for season three, there were actually places that I experimented with that idea. Because in a sense, I think voices, that kind of a vocal element, is the only possible escalation of sound that I think I could do at this [point]. I mean, I’ve done strings and winds and brass and 808s and beats but we’ve never done the voice. And, you know, there’s a lot there. But we’ve never done the voice. It was only at that exact moment of the actual closure of the season that it felt like the place to do it. And for me, that was an experiment too. I didn’t know for sure that that was going to work, but I felt like that was the moment. And for this piece, I just used the word “amen.” Because to me, it felt like that word says a lot, but it’s one word. It doesn’t say too much. It implies a lot of different things that we may be thinking about, both for this season and for the show in general, without giving too much away.
But for a show that has always lived on these sort of Shakespearean themes, it is perhaps the most Shakespearean episode of the entire series.
Right.
Working on that episode, in particular, if you can remember this, were the discussions about, do we temper it down and let the drama play out? Does it need to be even bigger?
Absolutely. It’s very much a constant conversation. And I’ll give an example. The way that I work with Jesse is they’ll send me the episode and I will do a full pass on the episode, where I’ll go through and say, here’s kind of my take. You know, this is what I think we can do musically. And we do this for every episode, and we go into detail. And I’ll have a whole conversation with Jesse. He’ll go through every single musical idea, every episode. And we’ll go through each one, piece by piece, and sort of say, “How does this feel?” In some episodes, a lot feels right, right away. Some episodes, it’s really a tonal question of like, you never know until you try something. So at times, I might over-experiment. I’ll say, “Hey, we could put this here. We could put something here under this.” For example, I think at one point I was experimenting with having some music [in the finale] when they’re all talking at the table at the sort of the beginning. There were some musical ideas I experimented with there. I think we ended up not putting something under that. But you sort of don’t know until you try. And I think also part of that is because the way that we use music in the show has its own character itself. We’re not always just underlining things with the music. There are pieces where I’m trying to sort of lurk underneath, perhaps. And then there are pieces where I’m actually doing the opposite, where I’m actually being quite forward. One example of that was the end credit sequence in episode three, when the FBI raids Waystar Royco. That piece, in particular, I sort of turned the knob up to 11. It just felt like it called for this. Like literally the government’s raiding the company, and it felt like we could really go soar, in a sense.
And as you brought up, end of the last episode, there are a lot of places where it is quiet. And actually, the very end was something that Jesse and I worked on really closely because I wanted there to be a sort of a move right on the end. I felt we had to go somewhere strong right there. But also how we got into that was definitely, Jesse’s instinct was a sense of this quiet. And actually, there’s almost a slight, like, breath, a slight pause, right at the end of the episode before the final piece comes in. And then you hear the choir come in.
Because there is a score when Shiv walks away and sits down.
Very quiet. It’s me on the piano, actually.
So they are about to shoot season four. Or they are shooting season four. I can’t remember.
I don’t know when they officially start, but it’s going to happen. Yeah.
Per our earlier conversation, have you gotten a heads up to what to think about for the season in terms of scoring it?
It’s a great question because I actually, we’re right where normally I’m about to have those conversations with Jesse. So as of this moment, I actually have no idea. And I’m as excited as anyone, I guess, to see what they’ve been cooking up, to see what they’re thinking. My bet is I’m going to talk to Jesse in a week or so, I think. And usually he’ll tell me some things, we’ll have an early brainstorming, and then I’ll go off and start experimenting. And then we’ll probably meet up, I’m betting, a bit later in the summer. And I’ll sort of show him some of these things once I’ve done cooking up. And then take it from there. But one of the fun things is I’m always kind of playing with ideas for “Succession” in the back of my mind. Because it’s always, it’s a lot of fun. There’s so much freedom. And there’s just wonderful collaboration.
Are you working on “Andor” now, or are you finished?
I am. I’m working on it right now. [Laughs].
You obviously have the breadth of the John Williams “Star Wars” legacy, and you have what Ludwig Göransson has done recently with “The Mandalorian.” Have you felt the freedom to bring what you want to, to the Star Wars universe?
I have to be very careful of what I say. But I will say, they’ve given me an incredible amount of freedom. And I think it’s very important for what we’re doing on “Andor,” it’s actually, everyone agrees very important that it have its own sound, its own sound world. I can’t say enough about how wonderful the experience has been. And I’m so excited about that too. They have definitely been wonderful collaborators. And musically I’m, yeah, I’m definitely able to bring my perspective to it. I would definitely say that.
And they’re like, “Don’t say anything else.”
I can’t say anything, yeah. But I’m so excited for it to come out. Once it comes out, I’d love to continue the conversation. And talk about it at length, for sure. But at this point, you know, yeah, it’s been wonderful. I’ve been working on it for two years now.
Oh. O.K.
Yeah, I’ve been working on it for a long time. Very confidentially. You know, very quietly I’ve been working on it, but yeah, I’ve been working on for two years. And I’ve been working directly all the time with Tony Gilroy, who’s the showrunner. And he’s amazing. Tony’s amazing. I’ve been a fan of Tony’s, my wife and I have been a fan of Tony’s for years and years. “Michael Clayton’s” one of our favorite movies…
The fantastic “Michael Clayton”
Oh. So amazing. But he’s fantastic. And actually, he’s our neighbor too. He lives just like 11 blocks away. So he’ll ride his bike over here, and we’re both New Yorkers and we just work together all the time. Yeah.
That’s awesome. My last question then is, and maybe this is public and I should know this, but based on your schedule I’m assuming you’re not doing “The Lion King” prequel with Barry [Jenkins]? Or are you?
No, I am. I am doing it.
Dude, when do you sleep? [Laughs]
Barry and I are working together on that. And actually, we’ve already been working together on that for a while. I actually don’t even know the official, I actually don’t even know what they have on the calendar for the official release. But you know, it’s a large scale project and it’s a long time period of work that we’re putting into it, for sure. You know, we meet up, when I’m in LA I work on it with him, when he’s in New York we work on it together. So yeah. Yeah.
You are a busy man.
Been busy. [Laughs.]
“Succession” season three is available on HBO Max. “Andor” will debut on Disney+ on August 31.