Whenever you dissect a cultural phenomenon as large as “Star Wars” you know that you’re going to be assaulted with opinions. Such has been the case following the release of the first trailer for “The People vs. George Lucas,” a documentary combining professional and fan footage in an attempt to impartially study the fascinating journey of George Lucas, Star Wars and the fans that have both idolized and demonized the director and saga.
We got the chance to talk in-depth with director Alexendre O. Philippe, the director of the documentary. He set the record straight on the intentions of the film (It’s not a fanboy whine-fest), the initial reaction to the trailer and whether George Lucas has heard about the documentary. ‘The People vs. George Lucas’ is slated for release in 2010. You can check out more information about the film at the official website.
The Playlist: There’s been a lot of buzz initially over the first trailer of the film. What is your response to some of the comments made on YouTube and other sites where the trailer has been posted. Also, what is the intention behind the film?
Alexandre O. Philippe: I think it’s important to say that the intent with this film is not to go after George Lucas, not to criticize George Lucas and not demonize George Lucas. He’s someone that we love, that we respect and that we admire a great deal. Anyone who says or thinks that after reading our title that the intent of the film is to be sensational, or to make a documentary of a Lucas hate-fest is, in a sense, missing the point of what the documentary’s about. There is a substantial and important cultural phenomenon here, which is the fact that probably the most important, most recognizable, the most powerful figure in the world of entertainment, who was revered by his fans, who could do no wrong, who was a father figure of sorts has fallen from grace on some level.
There have been a fair deal of contradictions and contradictory emotions from the fans. You know, I love George Lucas, I hate George Lucas, I love him but I hate him, do I love him more than I hate him? That has been part of the fan culture for so long now, it’s just not going away. It hasn’t gone away since the special editiions. It hasn’t gone away since Episode I, II and III. In fact, it grew with those episodes and now we’ve got Indiana Jones 4. So it’s a cultural phenomenon that is growing and as a result, as a documentary filmmaker I believe that this is a cultural phenomenon worth examining, and deserves to have it own documentary.
One of the main criticisms we’ve had, well more of a dismissal is essentially this notion that everybody knows people hate Jar Jar Binks, a lot of people hate George Lucas, and what good does it do (laughs) to make a documentary like this? I have one thing to say in response to this that maybe only some film buffs will really get. I was thinking about this the other day, the criticisms, and I was thinking about something that I find equivalent to this. That’s the relationship that existed between Alfred Hitchcock and David O. Selnick as a producer.
I think that if you’re a film scholar and you study movies like Rebecca and Rope, for instance, certainly you can study the movies in and of themselves. They’re great films. But if you start looking at the history behind those movies and start taking into consideration the complex relationship that was going on between Hitchcock and O. Selznick, then you start looking at those movies differently. So if somebody tells me that the relationship between Lucas and his fans is irrelevant, it’s not worthy of a documentary or important in the history of film, then we might as well say well, okay, then I guess the relationship between Hitchcock and O. Selznick was not important in the history of film and who cares? So to me, there’s an argument to be made here if you look at it in those terms.
So, what I am trying to say is that there is something very significant. There is something relevant and we are passionate about exploring it, exploring both sides of the argument, and understanding where this love comes from. Where does this supposed hatred come from? How does this define George Lucas as a sort of towering figure in the world of cinema, and how does it define his fans? There’s so much going on here. It’s so complex. I feel like the more we delve into it, the more complex it becomes. It goes far beyond the Jar Jar Binks phenomenon. It goes far behind The Phantom Menace and whether Han or Greedo shot first. I mean certainly that’s part of it. You see that in our first teaser trailer. But it’s a very complex relationship because you have to take into the notion of was Lucas a father figure of sorts to his fans
If you look at it from a psychological standpoint, if Lucas was your father then you sort of idolize your father. Your father can do no wrong. Then suddenly twenty years later. your father comes back and does something that you don’t like. Then how do you view your father? That is sort of what I am talking about with this fall from grace. Is this something that has happened between George Lucas and the fans? Possibly. I don’t know but it’s something that we’re trying to explore.
Then there’s this notion of Lucas, the young and idealistic filmmaker who was associated with fighting the system, fighting Hollywood, basically being everything Hollywood wasn’t. The irony of it is that he has sort of become this empire that so many fans are complaining about, because a lot of them think he is exploiting them. But you can turn it around ask, ‘well, is he exploiting you or are you just …,” the fans don’t have to go and spend their money on the next George Lucas film. The fans don’t have to spend their money on all the Star Wars toys that come out. It’s sort of interesting that in the same breath they will walk out of the store with the latest Darth Vader figure of Millennium Falcon toy, and part of them is happy. But part of them says ‘Damn, Lucas got my money.’
We think that the analogy is very appropriate, because there was a childlike wonder and sense of awe when the original trilogy came out. But as you grow up and grow desensitized to your surroundings, you start to grow more aware of your surroundings. You lose that childlike sense of play. George Lucas created an entire universe. Twenty years down the road, we are different people. If The Phantom Menace had come out in 1977, what would our reaction have been then?
Yeah. (laughs) That’s a huge question. I think if you start to ask this particular question then you have to also imagine a world in which The Phantom Menace is the very first movie of this particular kind. Now, visually there is a lot of amazing stuff. You’ve got The Matrix. You’ve got so many amazing movies out there visually. There’s blockbusters. Certainly when The Phantom Menace came out, it wasn’t the same element of ‘Oh gosh, I have never seen this before.’ That’s part of it. But then there’s the aspect of storytelling.
I do not believe that the storytelling in episodes I,II and III is nearly as clean, as crisp, as powerful, as simply told or as profound as episodes IV,V and VI. I think it’s a lot more ambitious. I think he has tried to accomplish a lot more in episodes I,II and III, but I also believe that he should have surrounded himself with other writers, supporting writers like he did with the earlier episodes.
When you think about the Star Wars saga, the original trilogy focuses more on mysticism and the religion of The Force, where the prequel trilogy touches upon politics in a more detailed manner. Whether you loved or hated the prequel trilogy, you have to credit Lucas for trying. He definitely could have stood pat and said, ‘You figure it out. Anakin was good, now he’s bad. The end.’
(Laughs) Yeah, I think there are a lot of holes in the storytelling, personally. The scene in Episode III in which Anakin kneels in front of Palpatine and suddenly becomes Darth Vader, you just feel like wait a second. One minute he is Anakin. The next he is Darth Vader. I did not understand that transformation at all. It feels like there’s a couple of scenes literally missing from the script. It’s not organic.
But you’re also comparing apples to oranges. If I wanted to be in his defense, Star Wars is a classical story. It has a lot of similarities to classic stories. It seems to be the same story as one that comes in every generation, in one shape or form. We have The Matrix, Harry Potter, The Wizard of Oz back then. There’s a lot of similarities in the hero’s journey. It’s nothing new, it’s just told in a very fresh way. That’s what I think is amazing about Star Wars.
Of course, he didn’t try and do the same thing with episodes I,II and III, and I don’t blame him for that. That was great. That was really bold to do that. But here’s where it gets really interesting. We interviewed a number of French scholars in Geneva and almost unanimously they thought, and will explain in their own words why they felt that episodes I,II and III are greater films than episodes IV, V and VI. I’m Swiss-French and so I’m not surprised, because the French like to contradict people. It’s part of the culture. But at the same time, it’s fascinating to me how someone can go out and defend that Episode I is the greatest episode of all-time. But it’s their opinion and it counts. It totally matters. Even if ninety-nine percent of the people will disagree with the opinion, I think it’s fascinating to hear someone who is well spoken actually make the argument that Episode I is the best of all six.
Of all the film sagas we have seen, ‘Star Wars’ above all finds a way to illustrate what type of a person you are. Kevin Smith’s “Clerks” served as an extension of that. Whether Dante discusses being more of a “The Empire Strikes Back” guy, or Randall says he’s a “Return of the Jedi” person, what film you like in the saga indicates what you as a person are looking for.
AP: It’s almost a culture within a culture. It’s like you said, when you meet another Star Wars fan it is understood that you’re Star Wars fans. But you almost want to immediately ask ‘What is your favorite episode?” A lot of fans from my generation, when they are asked what is their favorite episode, will say ‘The Empire Strikes Back.’ Then a close second is “A New Hope.” After that, ‘Return of the Jedi’ and then episodes III, II and I. That is usually the answer that we get. So when you ask someone from my generation which is their favorite and they say Episode V, it’s almost like inside you go ‘ Whoo! [breathes a sigh of relief] Okay, cool. You’re one of us.’ In the subculture, when someone tells you that Episode III is their favorite episode, you put them into a different group.
It’s interesting. You see someone that says they liked “Attack of the Clones” and immediately you want to say ‘Defend yourself. What was so damn good about Jango Fett?’
Right. You call yourself a Star Wars fan. They call themselves a Star Wars fan and yet you’re talking about two completely different things.
It’s like choosing your favorite Beatle. Someone says they are a John Lennon fan and you put them into a category.
Yeah.
What have been some of the struggles during the process of making the film?
I think one of the struggles that we have faced, and will likely continue to face, is first the fear of Lucas and Lucasfilm. It sounds kind of silly, but there have been a lot of people that turned us down because they feel it might compromise their career. I personally find that unfortunate. It is certainly a testament to the power of Lucas, but at the same time I feel like it’s a terrible shame. If you love someone, you love this guy so much yet you’re afraid to speak up? There’s something wrong. I don’t know if it’s because they’re afraid they’re going to say something that is not going to please Lucas. That when it gets crazy and starts to annoy me. We’re just making a documentary and want to know what people feel. We want people to tell us the truth and I think that Lucas as a creator, as an artist should be able to hear what people think. That’s part of the process.
I mean we’re putting ourselves out there as documentarians. We have nowhere near the money George Lucas has. We have nowhere near the resources he has. We’re going out on a limb to make this film, and people are going to come out and tell us why we suck. People are going to tell us what we should have done differently, why we should have done it differently and that is why we’re releasing this trailer early. Part of it is to listen to the fans and get a feel for what people think.
A slightly different related struggle is that people wonder whether we are making a serious documentary, or is it going to be a Lucas hate-fest. It’s a very legitimate concern, but as a result some people are not responding to us. We haven’t done real efforts yet to go after some celebrities or high profile people we want to talk to. But it is going to be interesting to see, and I think it’s going to be an uphill battle when you go after someone like Kevin Smith, for instance, who is someone we desperately want for the documentary. I don’t know how many emails I have received from fans saying ‘Have you interviewed Kevin Smith,’ or ‘Are you going to interview Kevin Smith?’ I think it would be great to get his opinion. But how is Kevin Smith going to perceive us? What is Kevin Smith going to think about our efforts and he will actually see the film? So it’s sort of a Catch-22. People want to see something before they agree to participate in something, but we need them to participate before we can show them something. I think that is going to be the main struggle. We are grateful for the people we have so far, but we would like to get some faces that the general public will recognize.
How difficult is it to remain objective through the entire filming process?
Let me put it this way. I don’t think I need to be objective during the production process. I think I need to be objective during the post-production process. In fact, I try not to be objective during the production. I try to challenge people. Whatever their opinion is, whether they’re pro-Lucas, against Lucas, whatever they see in the characters or movie I always try to instantly put myself on the other side and challenge what they say. So I try to be subjective and make sure that they give me an argument that supports their beliefs. Because there is emotional involvement in what they say, and that’s fine. That is part of what this documentary is about, but it’s also about asking if you can detach yourself from that emotion and specifically tell me why you think you have a case for or against Lucas now that you’ve put those emotions aside.
I can see very clearly both sides of the argument and that is what makes this topic so fascinating. On one hand, I think fans have a lot of reasons to be pissed off. They’re perfectly entitled to vent. On the other side, I think it’s crazy for the fans to vent as much as they do. It’s crazy for fans to not stop and say ‘You know. I really love this man so much,’ you know? And they do say it, but it really depends which perspective you look at this from. You definitely can see truth from all angles.
Has George Lucas heard of the film, and will he sign off on it if you need to use footage, clips, etc. For that matter, do you plan to use Star Wars footage?
We don’t know for sure if George Lucas has heard of the film, but we hope he has. Last year, when we first began to develop this concept, we contacted Lucasfilm in order to express our intent and request their participation. At that time, they decided to pass. Since then, we haven’t had any contact with Lucasfilm. We sincerely hope that as it becomes more and more clear that our intention is to document the unprecedented cultural phenomenon of the relationship between this popular artist and his fans (and not to demonize George Lucas) – that he will eventually grant us an interview.
Regarding the use of footage, it is nearly impossible at this point to know exactly what we might use in the final film. The first step is gathering our original content, interviews and fan submissions; the next is cutting the strongest film together using those materials; and the final step will be determining what elements could benefit from the content, critique, illustration or example provided by the use of such footage. Like most documentary filmmakers, we will ultimately rely heavily upon the Center for Social Media’s Documentary Filmmakers’ Statement of Best Practices in Fair Use to make these determinations. However, it goes without saying that it is our desire to have the cooperation of the owners of the original works.
You called this the first digitally democratic film. Can you expand on that comment and how can people submit to the film?
Because of the fact that this film focuses on the cultural phenonmenon that has been born within fandom, and that you find most of these opinions out there on the web, we very quickly discovered this notion of opening up to the fans. We wanted to basically let their voices be heard. Giving them a voice is an interesting way stylistically to deal with this film. On one hand, we have celebrity interviews and our own interviews with some of the fans, scholars and critics that we shoot in high-definition to give as much of a polished and professional look as we can. But we live in a YouTube culture and a lot of people that rant and rave about George Lucas do it on YouTube. They do it rants/ They do it with animation. They do it with puppets. They do it with all kinds of innovative and creative ways. So the idea was to include some of that to really create what we call a digitally democratic film, in which anybody with anything to say has a chance to submit. So it’s almost like a film festival. Everyone has a chance to submit their content with a chance to be included in the final product. But one thing I want to stress is that whether or not their content gets in the film, we are going to thank every single one of them in the credits. Of course, we are going to try and include as much as possible in the special features when the DVD comes out.
So, in terms of guidelines and how people should proceed, people can go to www.peoplevsgeorge.com. It’s pretty simple. If there are any questions, people can email us. We are always glad to help. People can send the material by mail or they can also upload it on our site. There have been many submissions that way.We try to make it as straightforward for the fans as possible.