Elisabeth Moss might be the “queen of trauma” (my words), expertly navigating harrowing emotional stories in “The Handmaid’s Tale,” “The Invisible Woman,” and in her new Apple TV+ series, “Shining Girls,” but she’s also, more importantly, become a triple threat. Having produced, directed, and starred in “The Handmaid’s Tale”—directing several episodes last season and directing the first two episodes and finale for season five—Moss has taken on a holistic view of the show, and she’s applied the same approach to “Shining Girls.”
Adapted and executive produced by Silka Luisa, who also serves as showrunner, “Shining Girls” is based on Lauren Beukes’ best-selling novel of the same name and follows Kirby Mazrachi (Moss) as a Chicago newspaper archivist whose journalistic ambitions are put on hold after enduring a traumatic assault that nearly kills her. When Kirby learns that a recent murder mirrors her own case, she partners with seasoned yet troubled reporter Dan Velazquez (Wagner Moura) to uncover her attacker’s identity.
“Shining Girls” could easily be just that show; it’s enough. Instead, the show has a complex time travel element to it that’s easier to experience than to explain, plus the surprises and twists of it all are mind-bending, genre-bending, and something that should be discovered by the viewer. The show also features Jamie Bell and Phillipa Soo and definitely is a highly original blend of investigative serial-killer procedural, newsroom journalistic drama, a story about recovery, and of course, this ambitious time-shifting/time travel element on top of it all. Plus, it’s yet another showcase for Moss’ many skills, including that trademark indignity, burning resentment, and anger when not being heard.
Growing in her holistic creative role, Moss is also a producer on the series, a director, and an actor. And while that sounds like a lot, possibly too much, to hear it from her, it actually makes all her jobs that much easier because she intimately understands the show on every level and from the ground up. I recently connected with Moss by phone to talk about this gripping new series, her excellent performance in it, and her evolving role as a filmmaker and producer.
Thank you for letting me invade your Sunday.
No, thank you!
So “Shining Girls,” another terrific series of yours. You star, you direct, you produce on it, plus you have another show—“The Handmaid’s Tale”—where you do the same. Tell me about how and when it lands on you, the appeal, and how you make it all fit.
Yeah, so this came to me, God, either 2018 or 2019, I’m not sure, wow. It was before Apple was involved just through [Leonardo DiCaprio’s production company] Appian Way and MRC. And the first script, I just fell in love with it as a storyteller. I obviously love the role and it was very different from June [on ‘Handmaids’] at the time. June at that time, season three was very strong and tough and, sort of bitter and angry [laughs] And here was this character who was— at the start of the show was very vulnerable, closed off, and really wanting to hide. And so, I thought, “well, that’s interesting.” That’s kind of a challenge for me, to go from June to that.
But I was also just really excited about it as a story in itself, the genre-bending qualities of it; I’m a huge fan of anything quote-unquote genre, horror, sci-fi, thriller, action, whatever it is. I love those genres. So, this was kind of this crazy meld of genre. So, I was excited to just be involved in a project like that, and it felt so different from ‘Handmaids’ and had a slightly different feeling about it. I knew it was going to look really visually different, which I was excited about. So I was excited about it as an actor, a producer, and a director— although I didn’t know I was going to direct it at the time too.
You are already speaking the language I wanted to talk about. It sounds like you have your producer hat on now and are looking at everything through that perspective, a 360 kind of view.
Yeah. It’s become—there’s no line for me anymore, or it’s a very thin blurry line between acting, producing, and directing right now. They all go very hand in hand for me at this point. And, you know, I’m talking to some people about another project right now and I was telling my producing partner, I’m just as interested in the budget of the show [laughs]. It’s a funny thing. There’s your salary and there’s that conversation, as an actor, but I’m actually just as interested, it makes just as much of a difference to me to know what the budget of the show is and how many days are we getting to shoot each episode, that kind of thing. Who’s directing it, so yeah, all melding together [laughs].
I kind of find that fascinating on many levels, but also like: you can’t put that genie back in the bottle, right? You’ve got a three-tiered view of everything now; you’re like this hydra-head acting, directing, producing. Would it be hard to go back to just acting?
Yeah, ultimately, I prefer at least producing and acting; I don’t have to direct everything [laughs]. But it’s hard for me to separate them now. That said, when Taika Waititi calls and wants you to just come act in this movie, you’re like, “yeah!” I’m just going to come, and I’m just going to be an actor, and it’s fantastic! Oh my God, it’s so great, and it’s so easy [laughs]. It’s so lovely! I just show up, but I just do my thing, and I leave. It’s just; it’s like a, it’s like a vacation for me now [laughs].
True, true, it could be a nice change of pace. So, tell me about your character Kirby in “Shining Girls.” I want to say this in the best way possible, but you’re like, “the queen of trauma,” you do that lacerating emotional thing so well, and it’s so visceral and bruising. It’s also fascinating the journey of this character.
Thank you very much. And yeah, I know what you mean. I’m highly aware of [my trauma status] at this point. We have a joke on ‘Handmaid’s Tale.’ It’s just like, “June just can’t seem to catch a fucking break,” right? I’m highly aware that trauma has become my wheelhouse. What I liked about Kirby was there was a delicacy to her, a vulnerability to her that I thought was really interesting. And then I get to have this relationship with [Wagner Moura’s character] Dan, I got to have this relationship with Jin-Sook [Phillipa Soo]. So I got these slightly more normal relationships, even in this crazy world that we set up. I still felt like I sort of, you know, I had a mom, I had these more normal relationships. So, “Shining Girls” wasn’t as dark and traumatic [laughs]. But I do like doing emotionally difficult stuff, I have to admit.
What I find interesting about the trauma discourse, is that it’s become a narrative buzzword, and certain people will groan at that, but it’s just character pain and backstory, and baggage, and that’s just storytelling and character and it’s never going away or getting old.
Yeah, exactly, because unfortunately the human experience, yeah, it is what it is. And we are going to continue to have things happen to us that are going to result in pain or trauma, whether it’s on a small or larger scale.
For me though, when I play a character, when I choose a project, what’s important is not wrapping up everything in a little bow. Not everything has to have a happy ending and everything works out great. That actually doesn’t happen in life most of the time. Also important to me is a change. There is a trajectory, an evolution with the character. With Kirby, it was such a clear arc—somebody who is so closed off, doesn’t want anyone looking at her at first. She keeps her head down, her eyes up, puts her head down, dresses in a black and white, and is trying really to fade into the furniture.
And then to go from that to episode eight, where I’m—even just costume-wise, I’m wearing a dress. I’m confident, I’m standing up straight, I’m stalking around. I have energy and confidence. It’s not like everything is fine for her in the end. In fact, the opposite, I think she’s kind of sitting there going, “what the hell did I just do?” [laughs]. But there’s a change and it can’t just be the trauma.
Right, what’s presumably difficult about that is you’re doing all this emotional work, but the character keeps being thrown into time shifts, where she’s altered slightly, her hair and clothes are slightly different, and then presumably you’re shooting out of order. And then you’re directing on top of that!
It was very hard! It’s so silly because it’s like—the basic part of your job is to know where you are in the story! But this is that times one hundred. You have to be careful about everything we shot and yes, we shot almost all eight episodes out of order. So it wasn’t just like directing two episodes, someone does another two episodes, then someone does another two episodes like we do on ‘Handmaids’ and is fairly standard. This was super out of order, and then you add time travel on top of it, and the rules of it [laughs]. For the life of me, I still don’t understand the rules of time travel.
Ha, that’s ok, that’s the trick; nobody does!
[Laughs], right, nobody does! I also established really early on that I was not going to ever understand that [laughs]. And that wasn’t the goal anyhow. I just need to understand my own story, but yes, added challenges for sure.
I’m picturing this complicated charts and graphs map on your trailer wall like that Charlie Day meme and you having to periodically consult it to see, “where are we again?”
I mean, it’s kind of like that! [laughs] I would have to literally—I need to see episode two! Send me a cut of episode four! But I knew these scripts backward and forward because I had to.
What’s interesting is that juggling that all—directing, producing, acting—while it seems extra confusing, it might just mean you understand it all that much better.
Yeah, it was a lot, but it was kind of fantastic. One of the reasons why it worked and why we thought it would be a good idea in the first place—and we proved to be right— is because I’m in so much. There’s an element of being the director and actor and I know exactly what we did in episodes one, two, three, and four before we get to episode five because I was there! I’ve seen the two other directors, Michelle MacLaren and Dana Reid work, we’ve talked about it a lot. I’ve seen the scenes as a producer.
It just kind of became this logical thing—guess who’s going be here and know everything, all the stories, and know where all the bodies are buried? [laughs]. So it just became natural to direct these sort of leftover episodes of five and seven. Everyone supported it and it ended up proving to be kind of great for that reason, which is it actually made it easier. That’s what’s for people to understand. Directing, acting, and producing—how does that not make it absolutely impossible? And it’s the opposite; it’s actually made my job easier because I know it all so well. It’s just kind of one of those “I’ll just do it myself” [things].
That makes sense. Steven Soderbergh, who is always his own cinematographer, in many cases, camera operator, always describes it as one less filter of communication to get through because he’s doing it all himself. Pretty soon, you’re going to be shooting these things too.
Exactly [laughs]. I understand that I’m not there yet; I don’t have all those same talents yet. I did take the First Assistant Director’s walkie the other day, and I ran the floor for a little bit, so maybe I can dabble in being a first AD [laughs].
“Shining Girls” is available now on Apple TV+ and “The Handmaid’s Tale” season five airs September 14 on Hulu.