Matthew Macfadyen won his second career BAFTA Award for “Succession” on Sunday. In September, he could find himself taking home his first Emmy Award for the same acclaimed performance. Considering the depth he brought to his character, Tom Wambsgans, in the show’s magnificent third season, it would be more than deserved.
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If you’re reading this, we’ll assume you watched the stunning conclusion to “Succession”‘s last season which saw the Roy children effectively cut out of an inheritance they had been expecting their entire adult lives. That legal maneuver occurred after their father, Logan Roy (Brian Cox), was tipped off that his offspring were going to use their voting shares to take over controlling interest in the company. Logan had his son-in-law, Tom, to thank for the warning. In so doing, Tom betrayed his wife, Shiv (Sarah Snook), who was devastated when she came to the realization that he was her Judas.
Asked about why he thought Tom made that decision, Macfayden admits, “I’m not really sure. I’m not necessarily sure it was one particular thing. I think it’s just a constant, incremental accumulation of cuts. It’s like a betrayal by a thousand cuts and endless gibes and belittlings, and the fact that he’s not able to trust his wife. Then I think maybe he isn’t planning it. Maybe he just has a moment of great clarity and just thinks, ‘O.K., this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to side with my father-in-law because he’s the one.'”
Over the course of our conversation, Macfayden reveals he was told about Tom’s eventual actions by series creator Jesse Armstrong before the season began shooting. He also wonders whether Tom and Shiv can forgive each other, discusses entering the final scene of the season, his intriguing new limited series “Stonehouse” and much, much more.
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The Playlist: Congratulations on the last season of “Succession,” which people still talk about, which is amazing in this current deluge of content.
Matthew Macfadyen: Yeah.
The season ended with, arguably, one of the best episodes of television, ever.
It’s very gratifying that it’s had such a lovely reception and it wasn’t an immediate splash either, which is probably for the good, but it was a slow burn thing. Season 1 felt a bit like this is the show you should watch, have you seen it? Then it wasn’t a big fanfare, and so it’s nice as a show, it picks up momentum, I suppose. But it’s lovely, it’s really gratifying that it’s landed in the culture and people like it, and I like it. I can’t wait to see what we’re going to do in Season 4. I have no idea.
Well, that was my next question, when you began the season, did you know where Tom was going to go in terms of his arc, and especially with the events of the final episode?
I did a little bit. Jesse rang me before and said, “Do you want to know?” And I said, “No, no, it’s fine.” And then I rang him back and said, “Yeah, I do. I do. I do.” But then he told me, but it’s weird because you start shooting the first episode and you’re concentrating on that and it’s all-encompassing and you forget about it because it’s six months down the line. Also, in the back of your mind, you’re thinking, “Well, they may change their minds,” which is fine, and the writers are so brilliant that I don’t really mind if they do. I don’t feel precious about it, so I was very keen and excited to read the last episode to see whether that would happen or not, you know?
He’s always been so loyal to Shiv, what do you think made him betray her in that way?
I’m not really sure. I’m not necessarily sure it was one particular thing. I think it’s just a constant, incremental accumulation of cuts. It’s like a betrayal by a thousand cuts and endless gibes and belittlings, and the fact that he’s not able to trust his wife. Then I think maybe he isn’t planning it. Maybe he just has a moment of great clarity and just thinks, “O.K., this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to side with my father-in-law because he’s the one.”
He’s the one who can make Tom’s dreams come true.
Yeah. He’s the one who’s not going to lose. He’s going to look after me. And he’s made that enormous promise to Logan to go to jail, and he really thinks he is going to go to jail. I don’t know. It’s fascinating, but I think there’s a phone call where Shiv calls Tom and he just makes the decision there and then, and then there’s Greg, and even Greg goes, “O.K., I’ll go with you.” I mean, you’d expect Greg to go, “F**k you. You’re the one who’s bullying me and revolting to me” and he’s like, “Let’s do it.”
Were you surprised that both Greg and Tom finally had this moment of fully trusting each other?
Not really. It seemed to make sense, and I don’t know why, but you go, “Yeah. O.K., of course.” That’s the quality of the writing, I think. I just believe it, even though it’s sort of weird and ugly and funny and strange because people are weird, aren’t they?
Yeah.
I mean, they really are, especially family. I mean, there’s nobody so revolting to each other as members of the same family. I mean, and maybe that’s why it has such a traction in the culture because people are like, “Well, I recognize that. That’s my father or that’s my brother.”
Maybe you already answered this, but do you think Tom fully corrupted Greg or did he just bring out this part of Greg that he recognized that is like, “Yeah, I’m going to do whatever I can to get to the top and be successful“?
I think maybe Tom saw something in Greg very early on, which he saw through his sort of ditzy, goofy cousin from out of town. Because Tom plays that as well, so Tom immediately was like, “Oh, I see what you’re doing.” And Greg knows that Tom’s seen it, and so maybe that’s where their connection is. But I think they like each other, as well. I don’t know why they do, but they seem to. I mean, because there’s nothing at stake.
They like each other now, but Greg has mostly not liked Tom at all.
No.
So, something has changed.
Maybe. I don’t know. It’s always surprising because, as I said, Greg just says, “O.K., I will. Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s join forces.” He’s got a nice job, he’s going to parks. He’s got his own amusement park that he’s going to run. He’s in a good spot, so he doesn’t need to do it, but he does.
People are greedy! Obviously, you are in the final image of the entire season. Your hand is on Shiv’s shoulder. She is shocked and crying. She knows what Tom has done, not just what her father has done, but her husband has betrayed her. She thought she was smarter than him.
Yeah.
Can they survive as a couple, in your mind?
I really don’t know. I’ll be fascinated to find out. The other thing is, I don’t know whether, and I’m not sure how I played this, but I don’t know whether Tom has seen her see him.*
*Tom enters the scene after Shiv, Roman and Kendall have been informed they have lost their stake in Waystar RoyCo after their parents renegotiate their divorce agreement. Shiv notices her father give an endearing gesture to Tom from a distance before he enters the room.
Oh, good point. Yes.
I mean maybe he has and he’s just sort of fronting it out. I think he has, but I don’t know. I mean, there’s a chance, and the way it’s shot as well. You don’t see him see her see him, if you follow, and then he doesn’t see that murderous look that she has that’s so full of anguish and rage and betrayal. I wonder if she, yeah, I mean, this will all be revealed when we get Episode 1, whenever we do,
I did want to talk about that because that episode might be Mark Mylod’s finest hour of directing from a number of perspectives.
Yeah.
In that final scene, in particular, you walk in at a specific beat. How specific was the blocking that day?
There was a big scene before Tom walks in, or before Logan left, maybe almost a minute scene. I was just waiting outside for a cue for Logan to come out, and then I just walked into it. I don’t think we rehearsed very much. I just walked into it and tried to comfort Shiv and feign innocence, I suppose. I don’t remember much about it apart from I just played it very straight. But what I do remember is walking into that atmosphere in that room because they’d been in that room for hours shooting that scene and it was really charged. It was great. It was great fun. We were in Tuscany, which as I’m sure you know, Tuscany in July is just horrid. Yeah, really tough.
For a second I thought that maybe that room was a set back in New York.
In Queens, yeah. No, that was in Tuscany as well. So, it was just even more weird and magical and otherworldly.
Do you have any idea when you’re going back to for Season 4?
End of June, we’re told. We start shooting end of June until, I guess, early next year, I suppose, maybe January or February.
If you get the call saying, “Hey, would you like to know what’s up with Tom in Season 4?” Will you say yes?
I’ll say, “I’m fine. It’s O.K. It’s fine. I’ll call you later.” And then come back again, “F**king tell me everything right away.” Yeah. [Laughs.]
Does knowing that help you arc out your character? Is that important to you as an actor?
No, not really. Because the first two seasons, I didn’t know. Actually, you can’t really arc out your character. I mean, you can’t play the whole, you can’t play the arc. You’re playing tiny moments. Actually, you’ve got to trust the director to go, “Let’s bring this up a bit and let’s dial this down a bit.” But actually, you’re just doing little incremental bits and pieces. Knowing what’s going to happen isn’t always helpful. Because also, I knew at the beginning of last season, but they may have changed their mind, so I might have been playing something which wasn’t right. Jesse told me and I got excited and then I kind of forgot about it. I tried to forget about it and just play episode by episode, and then you’re like, “Well, whatever happens happens.” Because Tom doesn’t know what’s happening. You can’t play it.
Yeah. That’s true.
That’s the thing. Then I got scared I would telegraph something that maybe wasn’t useful, you know? It’s a tricky one, but I think on balance, if I had the choice probably it’s better not to know because then it, you know.
I also wanted to ask you about the two other projects, one that you just, I think is coming out in a couple weeks or next week. The first is “Operation Mincemeat.” What made you want to be part of that period thriller?
That was great fun. [I shot that] way back in 2019. That was just before the COVID [shutdown].
Oh, I didn’t realize.
We just got away with that before the world shut down, but that was a lovely script. Fascinating, true story about World War II. This crazy deception plan, which worked. An insane plan and lovely director, John Madden, and Colin Firth, who I was big fan of. I’d worked with Kelly MacDonald and Penelope Wilton before, and so it was really, it was a lovely, it was a nice job and it was close to home.
And, lastly, I don’t know if you finished or you’re still shooting “Stonehouse”?
That’s done. Yeah. Finished about a month ago.
Why would you, yeah? I mean, I didn’t know about it [either] actually, but yeah, it’s insane.
Are the actual details that you guys shot as insane as just the general concept of it?
It’s entirely true. Yeah. He faked his own death. He swam into the scene in Miami and left his clothes in a pile and his passport and went to Australia and started a new life, and then got caught and had to come back. It’s a very fascinating character.
Is it played tongue in cheek or is it straight drama?
It’s straight with a bit of… It’s quite comic, but quite sad as well. It’s a kind of caper, but it’s quite tender. It’s quite sad, but it’s very funny because it is funny. I mean, he thought he was, I don’t know what? He thought he was like Edward Fox and The Jackal, and he was spying. He was spying for the Czechs, badly. He got in terrible trouble with money. He had affairs and it all got too much and he decided to sort of disappear and start again.
Wait, he was a spy for the Czechs?
Yeah, a not very good one.
I don’t know when it will come out in the US, but I am already looking forward to seeing this because it sounds fascinating.
It’s good fun, good to be a part of, yeah.
“Succession” is available on HBO Max.