Ben Affleck is coming to terms with a new reality. And, no, it’s not in regards to his personal life, but his film career. After accumulating a resume filled with massive blockbusters and a Best Picture Oscar, the 49-year-old actor, screenwriter and director is now in an industry where the viewing dynamics have changed. In a Post-COVID marketplace, hits such as “The Town,” “The Accountant,” and “Gone Girl” would face an uphill battle at the box office with older audiences still wary about returning to theaters. It’s one reason he’s O.K. that 90% of the people who catch his new film, George Clooney’s “The Tender Bar,” will watch it on Amazon Prime because, well, they’ll actually see it.
READ MORE: George Clooney’s “The Tender Bar” [Review]
Just two months ago, Ridley Scott’s “The Last Duel,” which starred and was co-written by Affleck and longtime collaborator Matt Damon, effectively bombed at the box office. But, intriguingly, something strange happened. The film became one of the more pirated movies this fall, and buzz about it made a significant comeback both on social media and Hollywood message chains. That’s not how Affleck hoped viewers would find “Duel,” but, again, he is coming to terms with the changing times.
“You may have to adapt to the changing times. I mean, this business has changed, right? You had vaudeville, silent movies, talkies, color. Then there was Television. It’s continued to evolve and change,” Affleck says. “I had this with ‘The Way Back.’ No one was going to go see that movie in the theater. I could just feel it. I love the movie. It’s a good drama. That audience was like, ‘We want to stream it. We’re not going to rush out and see it.’ People were rushing out to see movies that first weekend? The currency is mostly like young people who just want to get out of the house. And there is a big and growing audience for these interesting adult dramas. But that audience now has been acculturated, especially with COVID and with the streamers and the quality, and they want to watch it home. They don’t care. They want to be able to pause it, take a leak, watch the rest tomorrow. And you can get a good 65-inch flat screen for $180 at Walmart. It’s kind of democratized that access because it’s not the 11-inch black and white that I had when I was a kid..”
Affleck continues, “Television means something different. And once that happened with ‘The Last Duel,’ I thought, ‘Well, that’s probably the last theatrical release I’ll have.’ Because I don’t want to do IP movies where you have this sort of built-in audience. That’s something I was interested in and liked, and I just don’t like anymore. I like other people who do it. And if you are going to do it, you should love it. And I love something different. So, I want to do that. Really, what’s important to me is that people see it. I mean, this is in a limited theatrical release, and that’s great. I know that 90% of people are going to see it on Amazon, and I want them to see it. I want them to see the movie. That’s more important to me.”
Also important to Affleck? No longer doing films on IP franchises. That’s great for others, and he’ll enjoy it from afar, but that’s not what makes him happy. As to whether the DGA Award winner will direct again? That’s just one of the topics the always candid Affleck discussed in our interview yesterday.
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The Playlist: When this role came your way, what made you want to jump on board?
Ben Affleck: It’s a great book. Bill Monahan did a great adaptation. Those two things are really important. And the only thing more important than that is the director. And I know George, I’ve worked with him, and I have friends who have been in movies he directed, who speak very, very highly of his ability to direct, actors in particular.
And to be honest, I got halfway through the script, and I was like, “O.K., nobody has passed on this. This is really good. I’m lucky to get it.” And it really wasn’t about, “Am I going to do it or not?” or “What am I going to ask for?” or any of that bulls**t. It was like, how good a job can I do with this? Because this presents me with some really interesting opportunities. And I’m at a point now where I recognize those opportunities to take them seriously, and I want to really do my best with them.
Did you read the J. R. Moehringer‘s novel before filming?
I read the book. Yeah. Clea DuVall, who’s a great, wonderful actress and director, she was in “Argo,” gave me the book back then. I read it; I thought it was amazing. Didn’t think about it. It stayed in my mind. I always this is one of the books I really liked. And then I didn’t even know George was adapting it until he called me on the phone.
But it was that same spirit and poignancy and lovely kind of honest capacity for self-reflection and analysis and sort of combined with the spirit of hope and connectedness that made me think; this is something I want to be part of.
Was there anybody in your childhood or your family that inspired your portrayal of Uncle Charlie?
Yeah, quite a few. My own father was a bartender actually, and a very literate, smart, well-read, really good writer and kind of a reverse class snob too. He was very intent on like teaching me that you don’t have to go to a fancy school and be a rich kid to speak well, to write well, to express yourself well, to understand great literature. And that was really impactful for me. My godfather was also an extraordinary man. And during the time my father just kind of disappeared, he was really a big part of my life. And I had a drama teacher who made a profound influence on my life, really kind of was that guy who told me, “You can do this,” and whose belief in me is responsible for my ability to withstand the relentless rejection that took place when I started trying to act.
Having known George socially, what was he like as a director? What surprised you or didn’t surprise you?
Well, yeah. I knew him socially, and I even knew him in a professional capacity because he was a producer on “Argo.” So I knew he really understood movies. I knew he understood not just movies, but storytelling and the nuances of it. And also, he has a really sophisticated understanding of; I don’t know how to say, how things are presented to an audience, how audiences will receive certain things. And that’s a deceptively difficult thing to really be able to intuit. What I didn’t realize was first of all, how much he had learned about acting and doing exactly the job I was trying to do and how good he would be at communicating exactly how it was he did that and how he could help me and how astute he would be and how helpful notes he would give me would be. Because that turned out to be the most powerful part of the process.
He’s someone who’s gone between acting and directing throughout his career. It’s been a while since you’ve directed in a while. is there any chance we’ll see you behind the camera anytime soon?
There is. After “Live by Night,” I was away from home. I missed my kids. And touching on the themes of this movie, I just didn’t want to be gone at all. I didn’t want to miss any more days than I had to. I got divorced. I had shared custody. So, half the time I’m trying to press in everything I can to have that time and be a full-time dad three and a half days a week. And I just was like…and I don’t know how to direct a movie without…[having] to kind of be all in. I’m just worried it won’t be good if I’m not the first guy there, the last one to leave in the editing room, 15 hours a day, and prepped for 16 weeks. It’s a year of your life. And I love the movies that I directed, but I missed some days I wish I hadn’t. And right now my, I got nine more years until my youngest child goes to college. Maybe I’ll direct something in that time. If I can do something in LA. If I can do short term. If I can create a schedule that works where maybe I can be home for dinner to see my kids. I was encouraged by the way Ridley Scott shot because he was able to get really good material and a beautiful full movie and you don’t have to be there from 6:00 in the morning, till 10:00 at night. And so, if I could do something in LA and be available to my children, I would do that. But that’s just a bigger priority for me than directing. And I have to hope that even if it’s nine more years, somebody will still let me direct a kitchen sink drama for a million bucks or something.
I think they will. I was talking to Jodie Comer last week and we were talking about “The Last Duel” and she was talking about the fact that she had never been to a set that was just so ready to go the minute she got there. How do you do that without working 24 hours a day, doing pre-production, committing yourself? I don’t understand how Ridley can do it so easily.
Like all great directors that I’ve worked with, even good ones, there’s stuff that I really took away from working with him and learned. in particular, he’s kind of dis-intermediated the process in some really effective ways. And it really involves exploiting the fact that because digital cameras don’t require as much light, you don’t have the same kind of directional light. Because in the film days, you had to have a big light just off-camera – bang – doing your sidelight here. This camera [we are using right now] looks good because it’s a sort of Vermeer sidelight thing. But if you have a second camera over there, it looks flat and horrible. And so a DP is always reluctant to use multiple cameras. But as the digital cameras became so much more light-sensitive and cameras have 14 stops of latitude now, what you can do is sort of light environmentally. And if you block it in an intelligent way and you have good operators, which is what Ridley can do, and you have great production design and good actors, you can use five cameras, which is what Ridley does, five or six cameras at once. And shoot a three-page scene around a dinner table in three hours. Because you basically do one, maybe two setups. It establishes a kind of urgency because you know he is not going to spend a lot of time on it. So, you better be good right away. The actors take it seriously. Everyone’s on camera. There’s this great energy to it. It’s a style that I want to literally steal and imitate and mimic. And also, it’s meaningful because it’s not productive to do the scene 50 times and burn out on it. And by the time they get to your coverage, you’re just like, “I don’t know how. None of this feels real. None of it feels moving to me.” And there’s something about having it be rehearsed enough or familiar enough, so that it’s real, but not let it taper off. And now the technology’s there that you can do that. So, I am hopeful that I can work like Ridley. You have to have a really good DP. You have to have people who are really committed. He’s a driver, and he doesn’t stop. I mean, he’s got energy like I’ve never seen, but it’s possible.
I want that energy when I’m his age.
I want it now.
I know through the grapevine that there’s one Oscar-winning director who can’t stop talking about The Last Duel, loved it. I hear directors on Twitter and social media talking about it all the time. I know this it’s rough going for adults sort of dramas these days and the actual marketplace, but it’s like one of the top pirated movies sort of out there. I know that’s not the solace you want to have about a movie that you make. But the fact that it has been sort of received that way, does it make you guys all feel good about the film?
Listen, I already felt good about the movie, you know what I mean? I was disappointed that the movie that I liked, nobody went to see in the theater. So, it was disappointing. Didn’t make me feel different about the movie, but it made me feel like, is this the new reality? And I think it kind of is. I like that it did so well on streaming. I didn’t know it was pirated. I’d love to know who the director is that likes the movie, so I can call him up.
It’s [redacted].
Oh, cool. That’s awesome. It’s funny because I was just talking to Paul the other day, Paul Thomas Anderson — I saw “Licorice Pizza” and it’s amazing — And we were watching a movie, and he was kind like, “Yeah. At first, I heard about the movie. And then it was like I heard this whole other wave.” So, I feel like there is a rebirth to it, and I think that’s due to the streaming thing. You may have to adapt to the changing times. I mean, this business has changed, right? You had vaudeville, silent movies, talkies, color. Then there was Television. It’s continued to evolve and change. I had this with “The Way Back.” No one was going to go see that movie in the theater. I could just feel it. I love the movie. It’s a good drama. That audience was like, “We want to stream it. We’re not going to rush out and see it.” People were rushing out to see movies that first weekend? The currency is mostly like young people who just want to get out of the house. And there is a big and growing audience for these interesting adult dramas. But that audience now has been acculturated, especially with COVID and with the streamers and the quality and they want to watch it home. They don’t care. They want to be able to pause it, take a leak, watch the rest tomorrow. And you can get a good 65-inch flat screen for $180 at Walmart. It’s kind of democratized that access because it’s not the 11-inch black and white that I had when I was a kid. Television means something different. And once that happened with “The Last Duel,” I thought, “Well, that’s probably the last theatrical release I’ll have.” Because I don’t want to do IP movies, where you have this sort of built-in audience. That’s something I was interested in and liked, and I just don’t like anymore. I like other people who do it. And if you are going to do it, you should love it. And I love something different. So, I want to do that. Really, what’s important to me is that people see it. I mean, this is in a limited theatrical release, and that’s great. I know that 90% of people are going to see it on Amazon, and I want them to see it. I want them to see the movie. That’s more important to me.
I totally understand that. And I’m still hoping, might take another year or two, that it will circle back. I’m still hopeful.
I would bet against it. I would bet against it. I think what’ll happen is that there’ll be three directors, maybe, Quentin, Paul, Chris Nolan, Kathryn Bigelow, I don’t know, who. That’ll be there three movies a year that they go out and see because they’re in the theater. It’s like “Succession” is just too good. You know what I mean?
Sure.
You’re competing against stuff [like] “Ozark.” It’s like stuff that is amazing. It’s not like Television was. Even though there was great TV, it’s not a serial programmer. There’s this wonderful art going on, on these streamers. And so, now you have to be like the most extraordinary drama because you’re also competing with built-in, amazing, streamer dramas on streamers. And there’s so much stuff. I mean, people are actually watching more, particularly because of COVID. So, I prefer to look at the silver lining, which is yeah, people are watching on streamers, but they’re watching more, they’re appreciating more. All this stuff is getting more and more interesting. And to not have to have such a big P and A commitment to release a movie, really lessens the risk for investors and people willing to bankroll more interesting risky movies. And I just think like no risk, no reward. You got to be able to take a big swing. You got to be able to try things. You can’t adhere to this conventional wisdom relentlessly. Or it feels to my eye ultimately, kind of too familiar to feel real. And it feels artificial and structured and predictable. And I want to do something different. And that just means a different economic model. And I get that. Nonetheless, I know these streamers are not losing money on these movies. I would love to know what the economics are about. They’re kind of veiled, you know?
They’re doing more than O.K.
I have a feeling.
“The Tender Bar” is opening in limited release on Friday. It will be available on Prime Video on Jan. 7.