In that context, why do you think the series resonated? It’s become one of the most-watched programs ever in the history of Netflix.
I mean, honestly, I’m still trying to work that out myself. We didn’t expect it. It wasn’t written or made for that level of audience. If I knew I would be writing the next project in the same way, because honestly, it is shocking to us in the extreme. If I were to guess, I think that what’s happening in TV at the moment is really interesting. And I think there’s a sort of a group of shows that are starting to follow what’s happened in film. And I think what’s happened in film is that the unusual is starting to triumph over the usual. And that you are starting to see odd things happening, whether it’s “Parasite” or “The Brutalist.” Do you know what I mean? And you are starting to see people being drawn into different spaces. And I think it’s because Robert McKee has become so absorbed in all these mediums that people understand the rhythm of something. And if you can find a way to break the rhythm in a way that feels authentic, and I think finding a way to break the rhythm in an authentic way is really, really difficult. I would say for me, “WandaVision” was the one where I sat up and went, “Jesus, how do they do that?” Where you don’t go, “Oh, there’s going to be a turning point about 15 minutes in, there’s going to be an emotional climax at about 28 minutes.” And then in the final three minutes of the show, “I’m going to be given a vital piece of information that takes me into episode two.” That is sort of how TV has sort of become in the last 10 years, not in the sort of HBO golden years, but in that sort of time. I think if you can find a way that challenges that rhythm, then people go, “Oh!” And they put the phone down, and as soon as you’ve got people putting the phone down, you’ve got a hit. And so I think we became part of that. And I don’t know how we did it. And I’m trying to work out how to break the mold in other stuff, because I do think that that’s the way to do stuff right now. I think people are hungry for that kind of stuff. Whether you can get that past the controller’s gates, whether you can get that past the commissioning* window, I don’t know, because it’s frightening stuff.
I think it’s a really interesting point in the context of, yes, Peak TV is dissipating, but Peak TV lets so many people do so many little things and try different things I wonder if audiences are now more inclined to look at something that they might not have watched 10 years ago, even on Netflix or Hulu or on whatever in the UK because they’ve been exposed to so many unexpected things and are now more open to it? Sort of like in film, where original things are popping if they’re good, because people want something different.
I think we tapped into that hunger for what we were lucky enough to tap into that hunger, and we were lucky enough to be talked about, and that created more hunger. And then we traveled everywhere. But for us, it was shocking being number one in America. It was really shocking being number one in Saudi Arabia. And you were like, “What story have we told about Pontefract just outside of Doncaster that makes sense for that group of people?” And that’s when it gets really interesting. I know that that’s the sort of accepted thing that people are genuinely frightened about what goes on behind closed doors for young people. But I actually think it’s more rhythmic than it is necessarily about story, but I think all of it played in together.
To be honest. I’m just happy it’s not censored in Saudi Arabia. But considering that you just talked about hitting on this goal, this “something different,” does it scare you to try and make a sequel? There’s been talk about doing a second season or a different version.
So, my favorite film is “E.T.,” right? I’ve got “Be Good” [tattooed] on my wrist. My son is called Elliot, right? And I’ve been obsessed with “E.T. 2” and followed all sorts of different iterations of what “E.T. 2” could be, and I never want to see “E.T. 2.” So, yes, it does. And I’m not putting us on the same level as “E.T.” because nothing is on the same level of it. But I do think I do want to work with the same people again, and we are trying to find a different story that works for us, that would allow us to play with the one shot in a different way, to develop the vocabulary in a different way, and to try and use the things that we learned to make something better.
You have two other TV series, and I think have just filmed or are in production. You’ve got “The Hack” and a new version of “Lord of the Flies.” But correct me if I’m wrong, just looking online, I was shocked that neither has a US distributor right now.
I don’t know how much there has been an attempt to get a U.S. distributor, is the truth. I’m not really involved in those conversations, so I can’t say, but I’d love them to make it “The Hack,” which is on quite soon. And it’s a very British story. It’s about The Guardian trying to delve into what happened at News of the World. But I hope that we will find a way to make our way onto U.S. TV. I’m really proud of it. And the direction is magnificently acting is magnificent in it. “Lord of the Flies” is Marc Mundum is doing something extraordinary. I think he is one of the true TV auteurs, and he has done something that’s really, really beautiful and distinctive with the show. So, I hope we do find a way, but I don’t think there’s been any attempt to sell that yet.
I was thinking because of the success of “Adolescence,” I was just assuming, hoping that for those shows’ sake, somebody would say, “Yes, we want to jump in on this.”
I would love that. I would love that. It’s really interesting that because the British TV model was built on selling to the U.S. and it’s only happened in the lifetime of my career where it used to be that we made shows just for British tv, and then suddenly it was like, if you don’t have a US sale, then you can’t actually make the show. And now we’re trying to find a way to get around that because selling a show in America has become so difficult.
All my friends who are in the TV business are living that every day. Yeah, it’s the Peak TV bubble collapsing bit by bit.
Yes. And the thing that you don’t want is then a new sort of conservatism to find its way in, because they’re like, “But that’s what works.” And I actually think “It isn’t what works.” We’ve got to challenge that because, sorry, am I talking too much?
No, no. I do think that the shows like the “Severances”, the “Andors,” your show, even “Mr. And Mrs. Smith,” which was a massive hit for Amazon, prove that creating something daring is profitable. The second season is going to be just as wild.
And they’ve recast it.
I mean, sure [redacted]. But I do think these big streamers are still trying to, they know that this is what pops and can’t. You can’t put the cookie back in the cookie jar for in some ways.
But also, if you are trying to bake an unusual cookie, it is really hard. And sometimes you can go in all sorts of directions, which just end up with, yeah, you’re making cats suddenly do what? I mean, it’s hard doing this s**t. And there’s got to be mistakes allowed for in order to get the good s**t happening. But the thing I was going to say is that the one-shot is said to be the director’s medium, right? Because it’s the director being able to swing their camera around and do their big thing. But I think the one-shot empowers the writer, empowers the actors, and empowers the direction, empowers everyone involved. And for me, it forced me to write a script in a completely new way. It forced me to write the incomplete. It forced me to not tell stories in the way that I was getting used to telling stories. I’ve eaten the Robert McKee book, too. I go, “Oh no, I need to do this at this point because it’s expected.” Know what I mean? I need to deliver what Jamie’s family are feeling at this point. I need to cut to them to see grief, and I need to see all these different things because otherwise people will be frustrated at what I haven’t shown them actually, on this show, we don’t answer. Episode two is all about a guy wandering around going, “Where’s the knife?” We never answer the question of where the knife is. They might find it, they might not have, but we never sneak it in anywhere else because we had to live in the incomplete. And that was what Stephen was brilliant at with me, which is just kind of forcing me towards authenticity at all times and forcing me away from my bad habits because he’s not someone that’s written as many TV shows as I have. And so that freedom I’m going to take with me will whatever I do next. The freedom to be incomplete and to do things differently.
I spoke to Seth Rogen a couple of weeks ago, and he was talking about that for their second season of “The Studio.” They’re sticking to the one-shot. And he almost said word-for-word what you said is because it challenges them in the writer’s room.
Seth Rogen slammed me in that show. I was one of many that was slammed in that show, but I was slammed in that show when he’s going to London and he’s trying to make himself look big. And they’re like, “What are you going to London to do?” And then he’s like, “Talk to the Harry Potter playwright.” I am the Harry Potter playwright. Oh my God, I forgot about that. That was a scream moment in my house when that joke landed. I was so pleased.
When you’re in the Emmys, you have to go and confront him. [Laughs]
I’m assuming. Turn the table over. Yes.
You might find yourself in the second season of “The Studio.” The phone might be calling for a cameo. But before I let you go, I had to ask, you were announced as one of the screenwriters for Sam Mendes’ “Beatles” project.
Yes.
Especially for someone who was born in the U.K., I cannot think of a scarier project to take on than telling the stories of these icons. Are you working on all four? Are you working on one of them? What are you allowed to say?
Nothing. I’m allowed to say. Nothing, I’m very, very sorry.
That’s okay.
But yeah, we’re not allowed to talk about it at all.
Can I at least ask if it’s keeping you busy? Is that your primary focus right now?
No, I can’t go anywhere near it, and they are really on it.
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We had no idea four “Beatles” movies would be as secretive as a “Star Wars,” Marvel Studios, James Bond, or “Game of Thrones” project, but we respect the game.
“Adolescence” is available on Netflix
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Editor-at-Large Gregory Ellwood is one of the entertainment industry's most respected journalists and critics. Based in Los Angeles, he's the only current awards expert who previously worked on Oscar campaigns at a major movie studio. Over the years, he has written for the LA Times, Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, and Vox, among others. He also co-founded the entertainment news site HitFix, which spawned a legion of influential Emmy and WGA Award-winning alumni.
